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[ninjamelody]

Hello from Thailand. First of all thank you so much for the developers and supporters who created this wonderful new world out of TES Skyrim! I know countless hours spent on this.

I wrote gameplay feedback in the "Enderal - Questions, Critique & Wishes" but here's the story feedback which I will write about:
1. Overall feelings from beginning to end
2. Thoughts on the revelations and plot twists at the end

Things related to real world and unanswered questions I'll join other threads.

Those who had similar feelings with me or contrast are welcomed to discuss it.

SPOILERS FOR SURE:

[+]

1. Overall feelings
I like how the game started with a dark atmosphere, death, dreams, and mystery, it makes me feel like a wimp at first, but later on I started feeling more of a badass when character develops and being part of an important thing in the order. The involvement of Nehrimese mages who has a different ideology as opposed to what the Order stands for, makes things more interesting that they work together against a common enemy with me (formerly a wimp) as a key part, makes me feel my quest is more important than before.

As soon as there those who do not believe the beacon plan, and there are betrayals within the order makes me pay much more attention to conversations, and find any chance I may catch insiders but sadly, non of it could be done. Then I started to learn a lot about Tealor Arantheal's flaws as a leader, suspecting I may have to fight him at the end because of his stubbornness and ego.

I like how deep the main quests involve exploring inner struggles of our close companions, their childhood struggles and how they are related to the black stones and things that might have been bugging them all their lives. Exploring Ryneus is quite phenomenal, with that power he could create a world by his own imagination and how sad I felt for him when it all has to end. The Starcity trip was epic! Got to fly and learn something that gives hope but ended with loss because of Kurmai went hysterical.

About the daddy dreams it seems like a childhood struggle for the protagonist, (as my interpretation) he must have been blamed a failure, might have been indirectly called the people to help, but instead those people burned their houses including daddy, mom, and sister, but the guilt is put on the protagonist, which could have been the strongest drive to become fleshless and be manipulated by the High Ones all along.

2. Revelations and plot twists at the end.
It is an epic ending. But there are things that kind of bummed me down, a lot of thoughts and information to swallow/rething, please do not take this as a bashing but it may be a result from a great story must come to and end, overall I'm still satisfied because of something deep to be interpreted, so it's kind of a mixed feeling of epic/shocked/depressed...

2.1 Efforts were counterproductive or in vain, really?
It's the feeling that all the hard work I've done with the order against the High Ones, where actually increasing the power of the High Ones, increasing Tealor's ego, without anyone bringing this up, really? Even the Aged Man has warned. And what bugs me is that nobody puts an effort to catch (spelling?) Lishari Peghast's murder, nothing we could do about Yuslan Sha'Rim or egotistic Tealor Arantheal before going down the tunnels urghhh.

2.2 Too long conversation with the Black Guardian. Around 50 minutes! I felt that he is genuine of telling the truth about High Ones manipulation, fleshless conditions, and the cycle, but then he lied about the "mercy kill" switch, this nearly hopeless prophet who failed on defeating going against the High Ones could shut down the multi-millennia old epic/revealer/observer instead. And wow, that's the final boss battle in the game..........?

2.3 Both choices to end the game has kind of the same dark mood. Whether it's we as a couple escaping to Starcity with most humanity destroyed vs. A heroic sacrifice that makes the explosion less severe, my lover, the survivor goes to a different continent to "help" with another beacon. Still, both choices requires the survivor very hard work to convince other people to how not to fall by the High Ones, or being consumed by their own ego, whether it's to the people of next generation or those who are building another beacon. Also, seeing those people who work close to us with the least ego such as Arch Magister Lexill, Guard commander Leora, and High Mater all have to die...


3. I'll say it short as it's about inner struggles and childhood that drives a person's ego, but also a grown man as a leader, could fail miserably because of his/her own ego too! An organization can be corrupted from the inside and its purpose could change 180 degrees. Not much about "religion = good" or "religion = bad I'd say", it's more of when someone does not want to feel "failed" or "wrong" or "rejected" or "weak" or "selfish", they could put a lot of effort to cover it up with a huge expense on other's lives.

The thing I saw about religion is that when human having a desire to be worshiped as a "god" always results massive loss, even the Aged Man, the Light Borns, etc..

[BigElectricCat]

OK, I'm game.

Even though downloaded day of English release, rather late to the party when it came to discussing and one post was probably too long.

Either that, or was rude by inserting a post between a couple of members who were already having a kind of multi-thread converation.

So how would you like to do this? Am a bit shy about posting "interpretations" or whatever because of educational background.

Don't want to come off as a snob or stuffed shirt.

If I do, just tell me I sound like a snot!

PS: Thailand eh? Off topic, but can you suggest some good movies? I like K-drama & stuff from Japan, but don't think I've caught any flicks from Thailand.

[ninjamelody]

OK, I'm game.

Even though downloaded day of English release, rather late to the party when it came to discussing and one post was probably too long.

Either that, or was rude by inserting a post between a couple of members who were already having a kind of multi-thread converation.

So how would you like to do this? Am a bit shy about posting "interpretations" or whatever because of educational background.

Don't want to come off as a snob or stuffed shirt.

If I do, just tell me I sound like a snot!

PS: Thailand eh? Off topic, but can you suggest some good movies? I like K-drama & stuff from Japan, but don't think I've caught any flicks from Thailand.

1. Are you saying that I'm late for finishing the game and start discussions about it when everybody's already done it?
Yes I'm late, I downloaded it quite early but hard to manage time to play the game. The idea of posting actually started from appreciating, but the writing got out of hand hahahaha sorry. I was worried if waited longer than this I will forget my feelings after gameplay so I wrote everything that came in my mind hahaha.

2. Maybe I should edit the OP and make a TLDR version. I agree it's so much longer than what I first intended.

3. I don't mind anyone having different educational/experience background whether it's going to be higher or lower than me. Just to remind that sometimes experience in a warring country could tell more things about war than and educated scholar. I have a Croation friend who could not go to school because their country has been warring for decades.

4. I will tell you if your snobness is standing out, but we are all snobs in some ways, in different things anyway.

5. Drama and stuff is not my type of entertainment at all, Korean drama is popular in Thailand though. I did not expect that taste on Enderal or RPG forum hahahaa but some popular puppy love drama series from Thailand check out "Hormones" people have been watching this for a while, not me.
I can recommend war and combat movies: King Naresuan, Suriyothai, Tony Ja's Ong Bak, Tom Yum Kung...

[BigElectricCat]

Cool. Good that you see it that way and will call me if get too nit-picky.

Sorry for any misunderstanding about being "Late the Party" Am sure they appreciate and I know I did.

All I meant was (at other forums & not here that I've noticed) -- someone could post, "My take on it is...."

And no replies at all, or... Someone might reply

"That post duplicates posting.php?.Mode=reply1234 , posting.php?.Mode=reply4321 and posting.php?.Mode=reply6789 Use the search engine."

He has nothing better to do with his time? More a reflection on him I think.

For me, longer is better. More info. to talk about!

Examples:

---
a.) I really liked this game. It rocked!

(That doesn't tell me much. What did he like about it and why?)

b.) Wow! This game is amazing. When <npc name> let the baddie go, that really hit home because IRL - I had a similar experience. (goes on to explain.) OTOH, I found the part where you have to choose between one or the other kind of bogus. IRL wouldn't there be more than just two choices?
---

Hope that makes sense!

PS: Thanks for movie suggestions. Will see if can find them here across the Pacific.

====
Meat & Bones Time.

Premise that the player character is dead strikes me as "reducing to absurdity"-- even if it is just a game and fantasy. Requires quite a bit of "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" and can be very problematic (from a writing & critique perspective.)

If you're dead and 'dreaming' or whatever, then how can you "die" a second time? You're already dead! You can't wake up as if from a nightmare. You're dead! Why do you need to eat, sleep, etc.?

But as John Locke (?) said, "He who defines the terms rules the world."

Bottom line: You're braver than I am. Still trying to make sense of the premise that (imo) opens up holes you could drive a truck through. I know the writer is better than that, so obviously I haven't figured it out yet or am missing something.

Or.... It was never intended to be 'critiqued' or whatever. Just take the story at face value.

[ninjamelody]

Yea, about long posts that are well-written at least it gives more "substance" than the "good or bad". But I'm not sure I'm that good in writing haha.

About the part of the protagonist is already dead, Tealor who acts as my supervisor is also already dead but revived as a new creature, closer to immortality kind of bums me in some way like:
"So it's kind of a waste of effort avoid dying during the gameplay and combat?"
"Man, why didn't I know about my super-cheating fleshless state before."

[BigElectricCat]

Sorry I'm late in replying. You're right. Trying to do a critique or play "devil's advocate" is hard. Wanted to put some thought into this, and it's still too long!

Here goes though. Just stuff I noticed.

1.) Don't Trust People:
They will betray you, hurt you, or worse... They'll up and die on you! What hurt could be more than the death of a friend or loved one? Yet we see it again and again.

Think I counted 4 NPCs who were orphans, lost a family member or parents, etc. How many times does "My Condolences" come up in dialogue?


2.) Capt. Roccio:

She has to maintain order on a ship or sailors can get killed. Stowaways don't earn their keep. Maybe it's a maritime law. You earn your keep or if caught as a stowaway... Walk the plank!

So why doesn't she just kill PC as well?

Instead she says, "Enjoy your new life."

What? Really a stretch here, but is it Roccio at all?

Veiled Lady to PC's friend, "You mistake my actions as saving you. Nothing personal, but I have a different reason, etc., etc."

Veiled Lady is sea Captain or manipulating sea captain?

You have to admit, tossing someone overboard and saying, "Enjoy your new life" is a bit odd.

3.) Betrayal and Loss:

a.) Starts with Leshari's partner who sells out to mercenaries. Lashari gets bumped off (a shame because I liked her potty mouth dialogue & great voice acting. Of all the NPC's she might be the most believable, or at least the one I related to the most.)

b.) Constantine... Super high level mage conveniently goes nuts? Uhm... Wouldn't he spot the symptoms of Arcane Madness and get the heck out of Dodge?

c.) Calia gets wounded and conveniently out of the picture.

d.) Yuslan Sha'Rim sells out or has been a puppet all along.

e.) Then there's Tealor. Did he ever have a chance? Not buying into the "Pridefully saving my honor-- I'll go down in history as a savior" idea. What history? He's setting off some kind of H-Bomb. There won't be any history! Of all of them, seems like Tealor got screwed over the most.

Summary:

Whole thing reminds me of a song from an old Rock band called Rush. Ever listen to their song, "Freewill" ?

Here's chorus

---
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
---

Did Tealor, or anyone ever really have freedom of choice? Tyranny and Predestination via some dreamed up "High Ones?"

I say "dreamed up" because that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Whole thing is just final thoughts of a dying mind as it runs out of oxygen. A projection if you will...

Four graves at childhood home?

Constantine explains the "Masked Men" are a bunch of religious fanatics who are total morons when it comes to debate. "The Gods said it. I believe it. And that's that! You can't reason with the unreasonable." Ha! Loved that one. (He's another likable NPC & a shame they wrote him out.)

Anyway, so these masked fanatics who murder farmers, their wives and innocent children...

...Also are very nice fanatics who give their victims a proper burial complete with some all too handy marble tombstones.

The family was buried by the locals.

Maybe, but where do poor farmers get the cash to pay for marble grave markers?

Unless it's all just in the "prophet's" head-- his last moments among the living.

So yes! Bummer... That's a risky thing to do in writing. Has its flaws, but all stories do. That's why it's easy to play "What's it mean game" and poke holes in it.

Writing though. From my limited experience, that's-- excuse my language but there's no other way to say it.

Writing is damned hard work!

Nicolas (and others or maybe his editor) pulled it off though. Probably better than anything I've come up with as amateur Sci-Fi writer wannabe.

[Glycerin]

What? Really a stretch here, but is it Roccio at all?
Veiled Lady to PC's friend, "You mistake my actions as saving you. Nothing personal, but I have a different reason, etc., etc."
Veiled Lady is sea Captain or manipulating sea captain?
You have to admit, tossing someone overboard and saying, "Enjoy your new life" is a bit odd.

I didn't find it odd at all. Rocio knew her two captives wanted to start a new life in Enderal, so it is just a sarcastic comment on how things turned out for them. "Enjoy your new life" has a double meaning only for the player, because you know what is going on, but Rocio doesn't.

b.) Constantine... Super high level mage conveniently goes nuts? Uhm... Wouldn't he spot the symptoms of Arcane Madness and get the heck out of Dodge?

He lost his mind for sure, but did he suffer from the Red Madness? I don't remember if his eyes were red in his last scene, but I think I would have noticed.
Having the thoughts and feelings of an ancient Pyrean in your mind, who witnessed the destruction of her own civilisation and spent millenia in solitude, is certainly enough to drive even an experienced mage like Constantine crazy.

I say "dreamed up" because that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Whole thing is just final thoughts of a dying mind as it runs out of oxygen. A projection if you will...
Four graves at childhood home?
[...]
...Also are very nice fanatics who give their victims a proper burial complete with some all too handy marble tombstones.
Unless it's all just in the "prophet's" head-- his last moments among the living.

When you destroy the beacon, you die, and this time properly, so the scene with the four gravestones definitely is a dream you have in the last moments of your life, but that doesn't mean everything has happened only in the protagonist's mind.
I agree, the theory, that everything is a dream, has its merits. It is even supported by some things in the game, like Aixon's remarks, but it is never stated explicitly.
Maybe the author just didn't want to give a straight answer to whether the whole story is dreamed up or not, so you can decide for yourself. I personally really don't like the thought that nothing actually happened (from an in-game perspective). That feels even more frustrating than being unable to save the Endraleans, no matter what you do, and possibly killing everyone else as well, if you go for the Starcity ending.

[BigElectricCat]

Thanks for thoughtful reply. At least I know someone read it!

Good point about the sea captain. Don't have a save from that early, but does friend ever say "start a new life" or words to that effect? If not, how is the she supposed to know?

If he does say so, then I concede the point. : )

Constantine... I don't know. Good point about Red Madness. That's different than being overwhelmed. Maybe one of those "whatever you want it to mean" type things. 50-50 chance. He's driven insane by information overload, or he's happy with an achievement of a lifetime. Guess I see him as being more excited about it than going off the deep end. More in character if you will.

"I trust you incompetents can handle it from here? I'm off to Ark. What an opportunity! The memories of an entire civilization! Probably take 12 volumes for those idiot archanists to understand. Only one with any sense is that Lexil fellow. Take whatever you find to him and don't bother me!"


(He's written off as being obsessed with writing his books or whatever. To me, that's more believable, but to each his own.)

---
Two things still haven't puzzled out tho

Who's the Veiled Lady? First I figured it was "Mommy" to pair with "Daddy" but a cut-scene ruled that one out.

She sets things up, then conveniently disappears. No more supernatural help I guess.

One of the "Ascended" or "Star-People" ?

Biggest stumbling block is still the whole "dead" thing.

Define "Fleshless."

Good ol' John Locke. "He who defines the terms rules the world."

For me, 'fleshless' means you're dead. (Or maybe belief in some sort of transitional state between life & death.) No returning from the latter unless you believe in some sort of afterlife or resurrection.

After your initiation, there's that cut-scene you mention. Jespar is an imposter, the weird statue, and finally all the "emissaries" appear. "High Ones" messing with PC's head? Same might be true for dialogue with idol later in the game.

Then there's annoying ol' "Daddy" and the cut-scene at the house where Mom & Sis hauntingly repeat what Dad's trying to get across.

"Just admit you're dead & this Prophet stuff is just a fairy tale you're making up to feel important!"

"Fairy Tale... Fairy Tale..." etc., etc.

The game's ending seems a double-bind. Bail out and maybe continue to fight them on your own, or see a country destroyed and trust your friend can convince where so many have failed.

Not a pleasant way to end the game, or even play it. But as a story... If writer's intention was to get us to get us to start thinking rather than just mindlessly playing "Go here Do That - Here's Your Reward" type thing...

...Job well done!

Never thought I'd be reading / discussing the vagaries of the story-line from a computer game!

Nicholas & maybe the others really outdid themselves imo.

[ninjamelody]

The Veiled Woman and Fleshless condition is pretty much the biggest questions out of Enderal, after finishing the game. Haha
Great writing always makes people discuss after they finish the game/movie/literature.

My take on the Veiled Woman: I can't find anything solid to prove that she is totally supporting the cleansing wiping out mankind, nor totally going against the destruction of mankind via the cleansing. On the other hand, she might be the personification of "wisdom", to let humankind learn from mistake, in Enderal story is that she caused influences to the main characters (PC, Jespar, Calia, etc...) and possibly Tealor Arantheal and Corack, to further their agenda, meanwhile the survivor after each ending knows of the cycle and spreads the knowledge to the further generation.

About Fleshless condition: I am a bit puzzled on how can they not die if they flee, but can die by sacrificing themselves to destroy the beacon?
Did Tealor Arantheal already die when he lights the beacon before we came up from the tunnels?

[BigElectricCat]

Yeah, some of the load screens & cut-scenes seem contradictory. (To me at least.) Some mention "after your near death experience, you can go back to your meditation place" implying I'm still alive. Other cut-scenes imply I'm long gone along with other "emissaries." Guess there is no answer?

Veiled lady = wisdom. Cool. "Learn from our mistakes" kind of thing. Sounds good to me.

She seems to set up the possibility we can break the cycle, but won't snap her fingers & banish the high ones from Enderal or its world. That's up to us-- humanity?

Did any of that make sense?

Usually I'm a pretty confident writer & not bashful, but talking about the story here is weird. Inexplicably shy for some reason.

Probably because I don't have a clue!

[ninjamelody]

About being shy, I do feel that a bit, for me it's like "Am I making guesses and missing some obvious information? How could you miss that?"
I think it's because the game already has contradicting information, and others may view it different than you, maybe?

I just started a second playthrough, I felt entirely different after entering the old temple (after being washed up at the shore). It's a damn tample with ANOTHER BEACON!!! Which nation is it, for sure it's not the Pyreans, and there were visions of those who were trying to light the beacon, and betrayals too!

[BigElectricCat]

"Am I making guesses and missing some obvious information? How could you miss that?"

Yeah that could be part of it, but usually I have a sense of humor about it.

"Bruce, if that's true then what about the cut-scene that clearly says...."

"Oh... Uhm... Phone must've gone off or something. Missed that one! Ooops" ; )

I think it's because the game already has contradicting information, and others may view it different than you, maybe?

Might be on to something there. Beginning to wonder if I've been making this too hard, and the explanation is really quite simple.

Might sound crazy, but...

...Here goes.

Cut-scene and guy in the jail puzzle both ask same thing. "What is reality anyway?"

Maybe the writer's whole point is he doesn't want us to understand his story!

Believing we can understand something like "reality" (when we're a part of it) is arrogant and "hubris."

So that's our downfall. When a civilization gets to the point where its people think they've got all the answers... It gets nuked by these "high ones" and the whole cycle starts again?

[ninjamelody]

The point of the writers don't want us to fully understand the story, totally agree, hardly find anything to debunk this point haha.

"Am I making guesses and missing some obvious information? How could you miss that?"

So that's our downfall. When a civilization gets to the point where its people think they've got all the answers... It gets nuked by these "high ones" and the whole cycle starts again?

Yep, makes sense. With pride as the main catalyst. As one side seeing the cleansing as a good thing to have, but the other side could see as a terrible upcoming destruction, got the Beacons and stuff, but turned out to be an even more important factor to make the cleansing happen because they and the older civilizations did not get the Numinos.

Aha, the NUMINOS! Is an objectification of what?

My closest guess is humility. The prophet's team's got all the resources, personnel, knowledge, strong desire to save. But yet they fell by pride. The clearest example is Arantheal not listening to his own team, it appeared that he didn't put effort on internal affairs, to make his team actually work like a team, how the loyalty of the Truchesa and Signet leader guy were lost. Also what has already been mentioned many times about Arantheal not being able to admit failure in past missions that failed and ended up killing civilians instead.

Observation: The only few characters that guess he's quite far from pride, are Calia and Arch Magister Lexil.

And how close were the main characters to be able to get the Numinos?

I think we were still far away, very unlikely that Yuslan Sha'Rim will be favor of Arantheal and not to destroy the Numinos. What if Arantheal became humble near the end and admit his faults and failures, will that help anything?

Still kind of bummed out that I can't do anything about investigating Peghast Lishari's murdur, picking up that capdust bottle raised my expectations so high, urghh.

[BigElectricCat]

The point of the writers don't want us to fully understand the story, totally agree, hardly find anything to debunk this point haha.

"Am I making guesses and missing some obvious information? How could you miss that?"

So that's our downfall. When a civilization gets to the point where its people think they've got all the answers... It gets nuked by these "high ones" and the whole cycle starts again?

Yep, makes sense. With pride as the main catalyst. As one side seeing the cleansing as a good thing to have, but the other side could see as a terrible upcoming destruction, got the Beacons and stuff, but turned out to be an even more important factor to make the cleansing happen because they and the older civilizations did not get the Numinos.

Aha, the NUMINOS! Is an objectification of what?

My closest guess is humility. The prophet's team's got all the resources, personnel, knowledge, strong desire to save. But yet they fell by pride. The clearest example is Arantheal not listening to his own team, it appeared that he didn't put effort on internal affairs, to make his team actually work like a team, how the loyalty of the Truchesa and Signet leader guy were lost. Also what has already been mentioned many times about Arantheal not being able to admit failure in past missions that failed and ended up killing civilians instead.

Observation: The only few characters that guess he's quite far from pride, are Calia and Arch Magister Lexil.

And how close were the main characters to be able to get the Numinos?

I think we were still far away, very unlikely that Yuslan Sha'Rim will be favor of Arantheal and not to destroy the Numinos. What if Arantheal became humble near the end and admit his faults and failures, will that help anything?

Still kind of bummed out that I can't do anything about investigating Peghast Lishari's murdur, picking up that capdust bottle raised my expectations so high, urghh.

Hmmm... Hadn't gotten to Numinos now that you mention it.

What does it mean? Define your terms. Heh!

Have to be patient with me.

Did a brief stint as adjunct faculty teaching "Freshman Composition" & later "Introduction to Philosophy." Hated trying to teach people how to write who don't want to learn, but really enjoyed Philosophy. Fun to take the 'opposing side' for sake of discussion.

Unless it's German, don't think "Numinos" is a word, but it's very close to "Numinous" which can be taken to mean "deity or spirit over a place." Comes from Latin "numen" & Roman religion mythology.

Nice bit about it at the wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous

But of course won't find 'deity' in Enderal, so we'll have to scratch that one and perhaps define 'spirit' not as some sort of ghost, but a mood or feeling. "The spirit of the times" as it were.

So humility will work, but what then, is our foolish pride? Thinking we can defeat some sort of ethereal bogey-man called "High Ones?"

But that's part of the Human Condition isn't it? Traditionally, that's seen as the noble lot of man to struggle against all the odds. Struggle against the impossible (avoiding death itself) even when he knows he can't possibly win. It's not about winning or losing; it's about not giving up, or one shirks that responsibility.

What would happen if the "Prophet" (meaning mouth-piece or spokesman for god or gods if not mistaken) decides to hare off and go exploring. Maybe get married and have a family? (Provided he isn't dead of course.)

Then the "High Ones" are basically screwed, or they'll just find another puppet. (At one point, I think they say how disappointed they are in their "Prophet." "You're so boring... We thought you'd be... A little less predictable...")

So Tealor was a young officer who panicked and ended up being responsible for a massacre. Won't forgive himself (bad idea) and maybe that leads to inflexibility. He's *not* going to make that mistake again. "Steady the Buffs!" He will carry out his duty-- even if it means setting off the Bomb! Talk about irony... What's a massacre when it comes to genocide?

The "High Ones" know he will fight to the end, so he's the perfect patsy for them.

And funny you should mention Arch Magister Lexil.

Of all of them, he seems the most level headed and reasonable.

What happened to him? Don't remember that part. Things don't go according to plan (they seldom do) but just when we might need him the most... Where did he go?

Guess I missed that part.

Shouldn't he have been at the beacon? He's basically the guy who built it right?

"Grandmaster this is insane. I cannot let you do this!"

Tealor kills him? He's conveniently written out of the story by someone's treachery again?

Brings up a final question that's certainly not new.

The fate of mankind (or at least Enderal) hangs in the balance, and yet we-- as mere humans-- cannot seem to set aside our petty jealousies, pride, thirst for revenge, etc.

If we're that bad, is our species worth saving?

Are the "High Ones" evil or are we the ones who are evil? What are the "High Ones" anyway? Collective memories of past civilizations? Our civilizations were evil then?

Sort of reduces to a dog chasing its tail. Futile and probably quite dizzy!

---
Final thought-- Yes! Agree about Lishari's murder. Maybe that was one of those things they had planned as a quest, but to leave out?

[MyLongestJourney]

And funny you should mention Arch Magister Lexil.

Of all of them, he seems the most level headed and reasonable.

What happened to him

After Arantheal ignites the Beacon without a core,you can find Lexil in the Sun temple courtyard,delirious with suffering as he slowly burns from inside

[ninjamelody]

Hmmm... Hadn't gotten to Numinos now that you mention it.

You mean you haven't finished the game and you came to talk on this?

The comment above said it right about Lexill, he was lying down painfully at the Sun Temple.

As in Enderal has named a lot of things from existing language, Numinos is kind of hard to relate.

I have read a lot of people making alternating stories about the Prophet, like the world would be best if the Prophet didn't meet Jespar then things wouldn't end up as bad as this. Well I'd say the Prophet will likely die of Arcane fever for sure and that wouldn't fit the quality of being a main game character hahahaha. Or maybe the Veiled Woman or High Ones will decide to do something drastic again to get the game going.

If we're that bad, is our species worth saving?
That is totally up to how we deal with our pride I guess. Everybody has some kind of good quality and intentions, but if the pride dominates, then you're screwed.

Are the "High Ones" evil or are we the ones who are evil? What are the "High Ones" anyway? Collective memories of past civilizations? Our civilizations were evil then?
I think the High Ones are US! Our pride that's been excessive but has remained through generations.

[BigElectricCat]

After Arantheal ignites the Beacon without a core,you can find Lexil in the Sun temple courtyard,delirious with suffering as he slowly burns from inside

You keep better notes or have better memory than I do. Thanks! Can't imagine how I missed it, but early AM when finished MQ.

You mean you haven't finished the game and you came to talk on this?

Ha! Going off half-cocked eh?

Thought we'd already talked about the ending. Thought it bummed you out, but maybe that was someone else, or posted at different topic. I chose the "float away" option fwiw.

And the ending (along with other parts of the game) is probably why some gamers have posted they don't like it, or find it depressing.

You (player character) aren't indispensable!

Not a very "feel good" message.

No one likes being told, "Nothing special about you at all. You're just convenient. You're disposable."

(The High Ones sound like Human Resources in a big corporation...)

So what if you refuse to cooperate or die of acane fever?

"We'll find someone else, but according to our calculations, you are just foolish enough to try and stop us. How amusing..."

Maybe that's what some players don't like. A sense of powerlessness and the whole "destiny" thing. "Why can't my character do something before the dwarf guy goes nuts? Why can't I at least be allowed the *chance* to prevent Yuslan Sha'Rim from the double-cross?"

"This is a game! I want to kick some High One ass! Get enough reality in real life. That's what games are for! Spill. You owe us an explanation at least!"

Maybe they have a point. Arrogant (and juvenile) to say to them, "How dare you complain and make demands? You're too stupid to understand art! Go play Pokemon on your phone and get lost!"

(Thank goodness haven't seen that here, but at another place)

---

One last thought occurred to me last night. Maybe others have thought of it too.

Yuslan is Leshari's killer? He just happens to appear when he does. And isn't he the one who distracts you into checking out the room and starts the "Wonder who's behind this" thing?

Perfect cover because it's only towards end of game that we find out he's been nursing a grudge, and betrays everyone because he refuses to forgive.

[Moirai]

I think, for me personally, Enderal was a beautifully crafted one-time experience. What it does, which is to lead the player through a well defined story, it does exceptionally well. However, for me, in that respect, its story is both its strongest point and its weakest point.

In essence, you have an experience with no real replay value, game-wise. For all its pretensions of having RPG elements, like its overhauled skill system, at the end of the day, it is not an RPG but a linear on the rails game. Right from the start, you are slotted straight into a predefined character and then led down a predefined path to a predefined ending.

Now, that, in itself, is not a criticism, as there are many games which provide that style of gameplay. But, if you use that style, and then drive the player towards an (unsatisfying, for me) no win ending, then it pretty much removes any replayability.

Point being, what value is there in investing oneself in any of the characters (with the single exception of your 'companion'), or helping any ancillary characters via side quests, if they are all going to die anyway? Answer, there isn't. After the first playthrough, it really is nothing more than a 'follow the dialogue chevrons' to the end of the game.

That said, it is possible that the devs fully intended for Enderal to be just that; a magnificent single play experience. If that is so, I have no criticisms, because it achieves what it sets out to do in spades. However, if there was any intention for it to be replayable in any way, then it effective painted itself into a dead end corridor.

If the latter is true, then all it would have needed is a actual 'win' ending that would have been achievable via a more difficult or hidden action/dialogue path. For example, if you've played the Metro games you will be familiar with its hidden 'good' ending mechanic, whereby, provided the player performs certain unmarked charitable acts throughout the game, they accrue enough 'karma' points behind the scenes to unlock a different and more satisfying 'good' ending.

If something of that nature have been part and parcel of the Enderal experience, then replay value would have been through the roof as players attempted to find that path to a good satisfying ending. And, suddenly, the core challenge would have been focused on the story, which is where it should have been in the first place, rather than the challenge simply being about...not being killed. As it is, any apparent 'challenge' in the story is rather facile, since you only have a single path to follow.

Enderal isn't alone in this though. There have been a number of games that lead you down a convoluted path to an arguable unsatisfying ending. And, I feel that, in many cases the authors of such stories become so entrenched in their own desire to define and tell that story that they overlook one important aspect of their creation; this is for a game, and games are played by players in order to be able to win. If there is no achievable 'win' scenario, then that story is simply a non interactive 'book/movie' style story told through a media that is intended to be interactive. And no matter how important it is to you to tell your story, in a game you should always allow the player to achieve a sense of satisfaction at the end, so that they feel that all the time and effort that they have invested in the game has been worth it.

By now, you're probably thinking that I have nothing but criticism to level at Enderal. Actually, that could not be further from the truth. I could, in fact, bore you senseless by gushing and elaborating on everything that I truly loved about Enderal and felt it did beautifully. You may take that as a given though, because it did so much of what is right.

As someone who has been into heavily modfying games on an advanced level for as long as game have been moddable in any way, shape or form, and especially with Bethesda's games, I am quite aware and appreciative of the huge amount of time and effort that has been expended by so many talented individuals in order to create Enderal. I am also exceedingly appreciative of the generosity of those individuals in sharing their work with everyone. None of that is up for debate.

However, none of that should blind you into not providing constructive criticism. No-one is perfect, and life is a learning experience to the very end.

Besides, what I've described here is really my only criticism, its ending, and one that I personally felt tripped it up in the final straight to what would have been a magnificent victory.

But, as I've stated, this is just my personal opinion.

[ninjamelody]

BigElectricCat
Haha, I may have to check if I started having Alzheimer about our conversation regarding the ending.

"No one likes being told, "Nothing special about you at all. You're just convenient. You're disposable."

(The High Ones sound like Human Resources in a big corporation...)"
Very good point! My disappointment about the story.

Moirai
You made a very good point about re-playing value, it's so hard for me to get up and make a new character (a different built with different attitudes) for Enderal, I know how it's going end, know what other characters are going to say, and the combat system is as bad as Vanilla Skyrim, but since this game is more focused on the story instead of combat. And the most hurtful part, that me (the main character) are a disposable puppet anyway.

Really, first I thought I may have the choice to betray Arantheal for:
1. Confront his past failure and clean up the conflicts he caused within the Holy Order.
2. Actually join Taranor Corack.
3. Get the Numinos without the help of the Holy Order.

[BigElectricCat]

Enderal isn't alone in this though. There have been a number of games that lead you down a convoluted path to an arguable unsatisfying ending. And, I feel that, in many cases the authors of such stories become so entrenched in their own desire to define and tell that story that they overlook one important aspect of their creation; this is for a game, and games are played by players in order to be able to win. If there is no achievable 'win' scenario, then that story is simply a non interactive 'book/movie' style story told through a media that is intended to be interactive. And no matter how important it is to you to tell your story, in a game you should always allow the player to achieve a sense of satisfaction at the end, so that they feel that all the time and effort that they have invested in the game has been worth it.

Very well thought out & written critique. Think that about sums it up!

I hope everyone can 'agree to disagree' on some points and not degenerate into two opposing sides trading insults or resorting to condescending sarcasm. That would be a shame imo.

Get the Numinos without the help of the Holy Order.

Woah! Now there's an idea! Kind of like snagging the Elder Scroll before you even bother with Delphine & the stupid blades.

Should be more than one way to arrive at the end-game as "Moirai" aptly points out.

But back to square one again. <shrug> That's just not what Enderal is, so no use wishing for what the game isn't!

Does lead me to one final observation about MQ.

Remember the 'jail' puzzle?

This is marked as level 2 difficulty, but had me completely stumped. Thought it was probably a bug and had to console to get out of there.

Not so! All you have to do is smack the guy!

But that's not something my character would do. The poor guy is having a nervous breakdown or something "Oh! It's hopeless! Woah is me!"

I would hit someone like this? Violence is the answer? No.

So does that violate a cardinal rule in role play? Player must behave "out of character" just to solve a puzzle & escape. My hand is 'forced' so to speak. Yes, he really isn't what he looks like, but how am I to know that? (Maybe I missed any clues pointing to him being an imposter & me needing to punch him.)

Anyway, guess that's about it! I go back to work tomorrow so won't be nearly as active here with so much free time.

Been nice chatting with you & thanks for putting up with my long posts. I do tend to ramble.

Have fun with it!