Hello from Thailand. First of all thank you so much for the developers and supporters who created this wonderful new world out of TES Skyrim! I know countless hours spent on this.
I wrote gameplay feedback in the "Enderal - Questions, Critique & Wishes" but here's the story feedback which I will write about:
1. Overall feelings from beginning to end
2. Thoughts on the revelations and plot twists at the end
Things related to real world and unanswered questions I'll join other threads.
Those who had similar feelings with me or contrast are welcomed to discuss it.
SPOILERS FOR SURE:
I wrote gameplay feedback in the "Enderal - Questions, Critique & Wishes" but here's the story feedback which I will write about:
1. Overall feelings from beginning to end
2. Thoughts on the revelations and plot twists at the end
Things related to real world and unanswered questions I'll join other threads.
Those who had similar feelings with me or contrast are welcomed to discuss it.
SPOILERS FOR SURE:
OK, I'm game.
Even though downloaded day of English release, rather late to the party when it came to discussing and one post was probably too long.
Either that, or was rude by inserting a post between a couple of members who were already having a kind of multi-thread converation.
So how would you like to do this? Am a bit shy about posting "interpretations" or whatever because of educational background.
Don't want to come off as a snob or stuffed shirt.
If I do, just tell me I sound like a snot!
PS: Thailand eh? Off topic, but can you suggest some good movies? I like K-drama & stuff from Japan, but don't think I've caught any flicks from Thailand.
Even though downloaded day of English release, rather late to the party when it came to discussing and one post was probably too long.
Either that, or was rude by inserting a post between a couple of members who were already having a kind of multi-thread converation.
So how would you like to do this? Am a bit shy about posting "interpretations" or whatever because of educational background.
Don't want to come off as a snob or stuffed shirt.
If I do, just tell me I sound like a snot!
PS: Thailand eh? Off topic, but can you suggest some good movies? I like K-drama & stuff from Japan, but don't think I've caught any flicks from Thailand.
BigElectricCat wrote:OK, I'm game.
Even though downloaded day of English release, rather late to the party when it came to discussing and one post was probably too long.
Either that, or was rude by inserting a post between a couple of members who were already having a kind of multi-thread converation.
So how would you like to do this? Am a bit shy about posting "interpretations" or whatever because of educational background.
Don't want to come off as a snob or stuffed shirt.
If I do, just tell me I sound like a snot!
PS: Thailand eh? Off topic, but can you suggest some good movies? I like K-drama & stuff from Japan, but don't think I've caught any flicks from Thailand.
Yes I'm late, I downloaded it quite early but hard to manage time to play the game. The idea of posting actually started from appreciating, but the writing got out of hand hahahaha sorry. I was worried if waited longer than this I will forget my feelings after gameplay so I wrote everything that came in my mind hahaha.
2. Maybe I should edit the OP and make a TLDR version. I agree it's so much longer than what I first intended.
3. I don't mind anyone having different educational/experience background whether it's going to be higher or lower than me. Just to remind that sometimes experience in a warring country could tell more things about war than and educated scholar. I have a Croation friend who could not go to school because their country has been warring for decades.
4. I will tell you if your snobness is standing out, but we are all snobs in some ways, in different things anyway.
5. Drama and stuff is not my type of entertainment at all, Korean drama is popular in Thailand though. I did not expect that taste on Enderal or RPG forum hahahaa but some popular puppy love drama series from Thailand check out "Hormones" people have been watching this for a while, not me.
I can recommend war and combat movies: King Naresuan, Suriyothai, Tony Ja's Ong Bak, Tom Yum Kung...
Cool. Good that you see it that way and will call me if get too nit-picky.
Sorry for any misunderstanding about being "Late the Party" Am sure they appreciate and I know I did.
All I meant was (at other forums & not here that I've noticed) -- someone could post, "My take on it is...."
And no replies at all, or... Someone might reply
"That post duplicates posting.php?.Mode=reply1234 , posting.php?.Mode=reply4321 and posting.php?.Mode=reply6789 Use the search engine."
He has nothing better to do with his time? More a reflection on him I think.
For me, longer is better. More info. to talk about!
Examples:
---
a.) I really liked this game. It rocked!
(That doesn't tell me much. What did he like about it and why?)
b.) Wow! This game is amazing. When <npc name> let the baddie go, that really hit home because IRL - I had a similar experience. (goes on to explain.) OTOH, I found the part where you have to choose between one or the other kind of bogus. IRL wouldn't there be more than just two choices?
---
Hope that makes sense!
PS: Thanks for movie suggestions. Will see if can find them here across the Pacific.
====
Meat & Bones Time.
Premise that the player character is dead strikes me as "reducing to absurdity"-- even if it is just a game and fantasy. Requires quite a bit of "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" and can be very problematic (from a writing & critique perspective.)
If you're dead and 'dreaming' or whatever, then how can you "die" a second time? You're already dead! You can't wake up as if from a nightmare. You're dead! Why do you need to eat, sleep, etc.?
But as John Locke (?) said, "He who defines the terms rules the world."
Bottom line: You're braver than I am. Still trying to make sense of the premise that (imo) opens up holes you could drive a truck through. I know the writer is better than that, so obviously I haven't figured it out yet or am missing something.
Or.... It was never intended to be 'critiqued' or whatever. Just take the story at face value.
Sorry for any misunderstanding about being "Late the Party" Am sure they appreciate and I know I did.
All I meant was (at other forums & not here that I've noticed) -- someone could post, "My take on it is...."
And no replies at all, or... Someone might reply
"That post duplicates posting.php?.Mode=reply1234 , posting.php?.Mode=reply4321 and posting.php?.Mode=reply6789 Use the search engine."
He has nothing better to do with his time? More a reflection on him I think.
For me, longer is better. More info. to talk about!
Examples:
---
a.) I really liked this game. It rocked!
(That doesn't tell me much. What did he like about it and why?)
b.) Wow! This game is amazing. When <npc name> let the baddie go, that really hit home because IRL - I had a similar experience. (goes on to explain.) OTOH, I found the part where you have to choose between one or the other kind of bogus. IRL wouldn't there be more than just two choices?
---
Hope that makes sense!
PS: Thanks for movie suggestions. Will see if can find them here across the Pacific.
====
Meat & Bones Time.
Premise that the player character is dead strikes me as "reducing to absurdity"-- even if it is just a game and fantasy. Requires quite a bit of "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" and can be very problematic (from a writing & critique perspective.)
If you're dead and 'dreaming' or whatever, then how can you "die" a second time? You're already dead! You can't wake up as if from a nightmare. You're dead! Why do you need to eat, sleep, etc.?
But as John Locke (?) said, "He who defines the terms rules the world."
Bottom line: You're braver than I am. Still trying to make sense of the premise that (imo) opens up holes you could drive a truck through. I know the writer is better than that, so obviously I haven't figured it out yet or am missing something.
Or.... It was never intended to be 'critiqued' or whatever. Just take the story at face value.
Yea, about long posts that are well-written at least it gives more "substance" than the "good or bad". But I'm not sure I'm that good in writing haha.
About the part of the protagonist is already dead, Tealor who acts as my supervisor is also already dead but revived as a new creature, closer to immortality kind of bums me in some way like:
"So it's kind of a waste of effort avoid dying during the gameplay and combat?"
"Man, why didn't I know about my super-cheating fleshless state before."
About the part of the protagonist is already dead, Tealor who acts as my supervisor is also already dead but revived as a new creature, closer to immortality kind of bums me in some way like:
"So it's kind of a waste of effort avoid dying during the gameplay and combat?"
"Man, why didn't I know about my super-cheating fleshless state before."
Sorry I'm late in replying. You're right. Trying to do a critique or play "devil's advocate" is hard. Wanted to put some thought into this, and it's still too long!
Here goes though. Just stuff I noticed.
1.) Don't Trust People:
They will betray you, hurt you, or worse... They'll up and die on you! What hurt could be more than the death of a friend or loved one? Yet we see it again and again.
Think I counted 4 NPCs who were orphans, lost a family member or parents, etc. How many times does "My Condolences" come up in dialogue?
2.) Capt. Roccio:
She has to maintain order on a ship or sailors can get killed. Stowaways don't earn their keep. Maybe it's a maritime law. You earn your keep or if caught as a stowaway... Walk the plank!
So why doesn't she just kill PC as well?
Instead she says, "Enjoy your new life."
What? Really a stretch here, but is it Roccio at all?
Veiled Lady to PC's friend, "You mistake my actions as saving you. Nothing personal, but I have a different reason, etc., etc."
Veiled Lady is sea Captain or manipulating sea captain?
You have to admit, tossing someone overboard and saying, "Enjoy your new life" is a bit odd.
3.) Betrayal and Loss:
a.) Starts with Leshari's partner who sells out to mercenaries. Lashari gets bumped off (a shame because I liked her potty mouth dialogue & great voice acting. Of all the NPC's she might be the most believable, or at least the one I related to the most.)
b.) Constantine... Super high level mage conveniently goes nuts? Uhm... Wouldn't he spot the symptoms of Arcane Madness and get the heck out of Dodge?
c.) Calia gets wounded and conveniently out of the picture.
d.) Yuslan Sha'Rim sells out or has been a puppet all along.
e.) Then there's Tealor. Did he ever have a chance? Not buying into the "Pridefully saving my honor-- I'll go down in history as a savior" idea. What history? He's setting off some kind of H-Bomb. There won't be any history! Of all of them, seems like Tealor got screwed over the most.
Summary:
Whole thing reminds me of a song from an old Rock band called Rush. Ever listen to their song, "Freewill" ?
Here's chorus
---
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
---
Did Tealor, or anyone ever really have freedom of choice? Tyranny and Predestination via some dreamed up "High Ones?"
I say "dreamed up" because that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Whole thing is just final thoughts of a dying mind as it runs out of oxygen. A projection if you will...
Four graves at childhood home?
Constantine explains the "Masked Men" are a bunch of religious fanatics who are total morons when it comes to debate. "The Gods said it. I believe it. And that's that! You can't reason with the unreasonable." Ha! Loved that one. (He's another likable NPC & a shame they wrote him out.)
Anyway, so these masked fanatics who murder farmers, their wives and innocent children...
...Also are very nice fanatics who give their victims a proper burial complete with some all too handy marble tombstones.
The family was buried by the locals.
Maybe, but where do poor farmers get the cash to pay for marble grave markers?
Unless it's all just in the "prophet's" head-- his last moments among the living.
So yes! Bummer... That's a risky thing to do in writing. Has its flaws, but all stories do. That's why it's easy to play "What's it mean game" and poke holes in it.
Writing though. From my limited experience, that's-- excuse my language but there's no other way to say it.
Writing is damned hard work!
Nicolas (and others or maybe his editor) pulled it off though. Probably better than anything I've come up with as amateur Sci-Fi writer wannabe.
Here goes though. Just stuff I noticed.
1.) Don't Trust People:
They will betray you, hurt you, or worse... They'll up and die on you! What hurt could be more than the death of a friend or loved one? Yet we see it again and again.
Think I counted 4 NPCs who were orphans, lost a family member or parents, etc. How many times does "My Condolences" come up in dialogue?
2.) Capt. Roccio:
She has to maintain order on a ship or sailors can get killed. Stowaways don't earn their keep. Maybe it's a maritime law. You earn your keep or if caught as a stowaway... Walk the plank!
So why doesn't she just kill PC as well?
Instead she says, "Enjoy your new life."
What? Really a stretch here, but is it Roccio at all?
Veiled Lady to PC's friend, "You mistake my actions as saving you. Nothing personal, but I have a different reason, etc., etc."
Veiled Lady is sea Captain or manipulating sea captain?
You have to admit, tossing someone overboard and saying, "Enjoy your new life" is a bit odd.
3.) Betrayal and Loss:
a.) Starts with Leshari's partner who sells out to mercenaries. Lashari gets bumped off (a shame because I liked her potty mouth dialogue & great voice acting. Of all the NPC's she might be the most believable, or at least the one I related to the most.)
b.) Constantine... Super high level mage conveniently goes nuts? Uhm... Wouldn't he spot the symptoms of Arcane Madness and get the heck out of Dodge?
c.) Calia gets wounded and conveniently out of the picture.
d.) Yuslan Sha'Rim sells out or has been a puppet all along.
e.) Then there's Tealor. Did he ever have a chance? Not buying into the "Pridefully saving my honor-- I'll go down in history as a savior" idea. What history? He's setting off some kind of H-Bomb. There won't be any history! Of all of them, seems like Tealor got screwed over the most.
Summary:
Whole thing reminds me of a song from an old Rock band called Rush. Ever listen to their song, "Freewill" ?
Here's chorus
---
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
---
Did Tealor, or anyone ever really have freedom of choice? Tyranny and Predestination via some dreamed up "High Ones?"
I say "dreamed up" because that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Whole thing is just final thoughts of a dying mind as it runs out of oxygen. A projection if you will...
Four graves at childhood home?
Constantine explains the "Masked Men" are a bunch of religious fanatics who are total morons when it comes to debate. "The Gods said it. I believe it. And that's that! You can't reason with the unreasonable." Ha! Loved that one. (He's another likable NPC & a shame they wrote him out.)
Anyway, so these masked fanatics who murder farmers, their wives and innocent children...
...Also are very nice fanatics who give their victims a proper burial complete with some all too handy marble tombstones.
The family was buried by the locals.
Maybe, but where do poor farmers get the cash to pay for marble grave markers?
Unless it's all just in the "prophet's" head-- his last moments among the living.
So yes! Bummer... That's a risky thing to do in writing. Has its flaws, but all stories do. That's why it's easy to play "What's it mean game" and poke holes in it.
Writing though. From my limited experience, that's-- excuse my language but there's no other way to say it.
Writing is damned hard work!
Nicolas (and others or maybe his editor) pulled it off though. Probably better than anything I've come up with as amateur Sci-Fi writer wannabe.
BigElectricCat wrote:What? Really a stretch here, but is it Roccio at all?
Veiled Lady to PC's friend, "You mistake my actions as saving you. Nothing personal, but I have a different reason, etc., etc."
Veiled Lady is sea Captain or manipulating sea captain?
You have to admit, tossing someone overboard and saying, "Enjoy your new life" is a bit odd.
BigElectricCat wrote:b.) Constantine... Super high level mage conveniently goes nuts? Uhm... Wouldn't he spot the symptoms of Arcane Madness and get the heck out of Dodge?
Having the thoughts and feelings of an ancient Pyrean in your mind, who witnessed the destruction of her own civilisation and spent millenia in solitude, is certainly enough to drive even an experienced mage like Constantine crazy.
BigElectricCat wrote:I say "dreamed up" because that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Whole thing is just final thoughts of a dying mind as it runs out of oxygen. A projection if you will...
Four graves at childhood home?
[...]
...Also are very nice fanatics who give their victims a proper burial complete with some all too handy marble tombstones.
Unless it's all just in the "prophet's" head-- his last moments among the living.
I agree, the theory, that everything is a dream, has its merits. It is even supported by some things in the game, like Aixon's remarks, but it is never stated explicitly.
Maybe the author just didn't want to give a straight answer to whether the whole story is dreamed up or not, so you can decide for yourself. I personally really don't like the thought that nothing actually happened (from an in-game perspective). That feels even more frustrating than being unable to save the Endraleans, no matter what you do, and possibly killing everyone else as well, if you go for the Starcity ending.
Thanks for thoughtful reply. At least I know someone read it! 
Good point about the sea captain. Don't have a save from that early, but does friend ever say "start a new life" or words to that effect? If not, how is the she supposed to know?
If he does say so, then I concede the point. : )
Constantine... I don't know. Good point about Red Madness. That's different than being overwhelmed. Maybe one of those "whatever you want it to mean" type things. 50-50 chance. He's driven insane by information overload, or he's happy with an achievement of a lifetime. Guess I see him as being more excited about it than going off the deep end. More in character if you will.
"I trust you incompetents can handle it from here? I'm off to Ark. What an opportunity! The memories of an entire civilization! Probably take 12 volumes for those idiot archanists to understand. Only one with any sense is that Lexil fellow. Take whatever you find to him and don't bother me!"
(He's written off as being obsessed with writing his books or whatever. To me, that's more believable, but to each his own.)
---
Two things still haven't puzzled out tho
Who's the Veiled Lady? First I figured it was "Mommy" to pair with "Daddy" but a cut-scene ruled that one out.
She sets things up, then conveniently disappears. No more supernatural help I guess.
One of the "Ascended" or "Star-People" ?
Biggest stumbling block is still the whole "dead" thing.
Define "Fleshless."
Good ol' John Locke. "He who defines the terms rules the world."
For me, 'fleshless' means you're dead. (Or maybe belief in some sort of transitional state between life & death.) No returning from the latter unless you believe in some sort of afterlife or resurrection.
After your initiation, there's that cut-scene you mention. Jespar is an imposter, the weird statue, and finally all the "emissaries" appear. "High Ones" messing with PC's head? Same might be true for dialogue with idol later in the game.
Then there's annoying ol' "Daddy" and the cut-scene at the house where Mom & Sis hauntingly repeat what Dad's trying to get across.
"Just admit you're dead & this Prophet stuff is just a fairy tale you're making up to feel important!"
"Fairy Tale... Fairy Tale..." etc., etc.
The game's ending seems a double-bind. Bail out and maybe continue to fight them on your own, or see a country destroyed and trust your friend can convince where so many have failed.
Not a pleasant way to end the game, or even play it. But as a story... If writer's intention was to get us to get us to start thinking rather than just mindlessly playing "Go here Do That - Here's Your Reward" type thing...
...Job well done!
Never thought I'd be reading / discussing the vagaries of the story-line from a computer game!
Nicholas & maybe the others really outdid themselves imo.
Good point about the sea captain. Don't have a save from that early, but does friend ever say "start a new life" or words to that effect? If not, how is the she supposed to know?
If he does say so, then I concede the point. : )
Constantine... I don't know. Good point about Red Madness. That's different than being overwhelmed. Maybe one of those "whatever you want it to mean" type things. 50-50 chance. He's driven insane by information overload, or he's happy with an achievement of a lifetime. Guess I see him as being more excited about it than going off the deep end. More in character if you will.
"I trust you incompetents can handle it from here? I'm off to Ark. What an opportunity! The memories of an entire civilization! Probably take 12 volumes for those idiot archanists to understand. Only one with any sense is that Lexil fellow. Take whatever you find to him and don't bother me!"
(He's written off as being obsessed with writing his books or whatever. To me, that's more believable, but to each his own.)
---
Two things still haven't puzzled out tho
Who's the Veiled Lady? First I figured it was "Mommy" to pair with "Daddy" but a cut-scene ruled that one out.
She sets things up, then conveniently disappears. No more supernatural help I guess.
One of the "Ascended" or "Star-People" ?
Biggest stumbling block is still the whole "dead" thing.
Define "Fleshless."
Good ol' John Locke. "He who defines the terms rules the world."
For me, 'fleshless' means you're dead. (Or maybe belief in some sort of transitional state between life & death.) No returning from the latter unless you believe in some sort of afterlife or resurrection.
After your initiation, there's that cut-scene you mention. Jespar is an imposter, the weird statue, and finally all the "emissaries" appear. "High Ones" messing with PC's head? Same might be true for dialogue with idol later in the game.
Then there's annoying ol' "Daddy" and the cut-scene at the house where Mom & Sis hauntingly repeat what Dad's trying to get across.
"Just admit you're dead & this Prophet stuff is just a fairy tale you're making up to feel important!"
"Fairy Tale... Fairy Tale..." etc., etc.
The game's ending seems a double-bind. Bail out and maybe continue to fight them on your own, or see a country destroyed and trust your friend can convince where so many have failed.
Not a pleasant way to end the game, or even play it. But as a story... If writer's intention was to get us to get us to start thinking rather than just mindlessly playing "Go here Do That - Here's Your Reward" type thing...
...Job well done!
Never thought I'd be reading / discussing the vagaries of the story-line from a computer game!
Nicholas & maybe the others really outdid themselves imo.
The Veiled Woman and Fleshless condition is pretty much the biggest questions out of Enderal, after finishing the game. Haha
Great writing always makes people discuss after they finish the game/movie/literature.
My take on the Veiled Woman: I can't find anything solid to prove that she is totally supporting the cleansing wiping out mankind, nor totally going against the destruction of mankind via the cleansing. On the other hand, she might be the personification of "wisdom", to let humankind learn from mistake, in Enderal story is that she caused influences to the main characters (PC, Jespar, Calia, etc...) and possibly Tealor Arantheal and Corack, to further their agenda, meanwhile the survivor after each ending knows of the cycle and spreads the knowledge to the further generation.
About Fleshless condition: I am a bit puzzled on how can they not die if they flee, but can die by sacrificing themselves to destroy the beacon?
Did Tealor Arantheal already die when he lights the beacon before we came up from the tunnels?
Great writing always makes people discuss after they finish the game/movie/literature.
My take on the Veiled Woman: I can't find anything solid to prove that she is totally supporting the cleansing wiping out mankind, nor totally going against the destruction of mankind via the cleansing. On the other hand, she might be the personification of "wisdom", to let humankind learn from mistake, in Enderal story is that she caused influences to the main characters (PC, Jespar, Calia, etc...) and possibly Tealor Arantheal and Corack, to further their agenda, meanwhile the survivor after each ending knows of the cycle and spreads the knowledge to the further generation.
About Fleshless condition: I am a bit puzzled on how can they not die if they flee, but can die by sacrificing themselves to destroy the beacon?
Did Tealor Arantheal already die when he lights the beacon before we came up from the tunnels?
Yeah, some of the load screens & cut-scenes seem contradictory. (To me at least.) Some mention "after your near death experience, you can go back to your meditation place" implying I'm still alive. Other cut-scenes imply I'm long gone along with other "emissaries." Guess there is no answer?
Veiled lady = wisdom. Cool. "Learn from our mistakes" kind of thing. Sounds good to me.
She seems to set up the possibility we can break the cycle, but won't snap her fingers & banish the high ones from Enderal or its world. That's up to us-- humanity?
Did any of that make sense?
Usually I'm a pretty confident writer & not bashful, but talking about the story here is weird. Inexplicably shy for some reason.
Probably because I don't have a clue!
Veiled lady = wisdom. Cool. "Learn from our mistakes" kind of thing. Sounds good to me.
She seems to set up the possibility we can break the cycle, but won't snap her fingers & banish the high ones from Enderal or its world. That's up to us-- humanity?
Did any of that make sense?
Usually I'm a pretty confident writer & not bashful, but talking about the story here is weird. Inexplicably shy for some reason.
Probably because I don't have a clue!
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