Well, someone has to start this off. First let me say I really enjoyed this game and plan to play it again after I spend a few days catching up on everything I put aside to play it for a month, so my criticism is meant to be constructive. I found the story to be both complex and ingenious. It certainly helps to have played Nehrim first to understand where this tale has its roots. It is also rather ... Germanic ... dark & philosophical; I could almost hear Wagner in the background. I really applaud the translators, I think they did an excellent job with what must have been some challenging concepts to translate fluidly from German to English.
For RPG players who are looking for a meaty story, this certainly provides that. For a free mod, you can get away with that. But I think if it were a commercial enterprise where the casual gamer client is needed for financial success, it might be a more difficult road, for a couple of reasons. First, some of the books are quite lengthy, and it takes a lot of patience to read all the way through all of them. Second, some of the scripted dialogs are very long, and some players could be tempted to just click through them to get to the end of the dialog and get on with playing the game, perhaps missing something important in the process.
It must be remembered that this is an RPG; for some, the "R" - role - is important and they really want to get into it, so the story is vital for that. However, for some the "P" - playing - is more important, and they want to focus on exploring, combat, magic, loot, etc., and for them a more slender story would suffice.
The bottom line is - who is the target audience? For a free mod, less important than for a commercial enterprise.
There is also a question of balance, and I don't mean in terms of combat, magic, armor, weapons, etc., but of the overall design of the game. Quite clearly, sureAI put much effort towards designing a beautiful and interesting world setting, and they also put much effort into the complex story. But I feel the effort on story overbalanced the "playing." I understand the problems, that they had one arm tied behind their backs because they had to work with what Bethesda gave them to start with (so I can't criticize the crashes and all the Ark loading screens), and that as some of their team departed, they just couldn't go down to the local employment office to find a quick replacement for such talent. So I lament that the" playing" (meaning the unfinished quests) didn't seem to receive quite the same emphasis as the story and setting did. I'm sure they wanted it to, and I suspect if they have the time to finish the remaining multiple quest lines, those will serve to enrich the story even further, as well as the "playing."
I also just want to complement the music and voice acting, both of which were very superb.
[sorry for the lecture, but I'm a retired professor, it's what I do!]
For RPG players who are looking for a meaty story, this certainly provides that. For a free mod, you can get away with that. But I think if it were a commercial enterprise where the casual gamer client is needed for financial success, it might be a more difficult road, for a couple of reasons. First, some of the books are quite lengthy, and it takes a lot of patience to read all the way through all of them. Second, some of the scripted dialogs are very long, and some players could be tempted to just click through them to get to the end of the dialog and get on with playing the game, perhaps missing something important in the process.
It must be remembered that this is an RPG; for some, the "R" - role - is important and they really want to get into it, so the story is vital for that. However, for some the "P" - playing - is more important, and they want to focus on exploring, combat, magic, loot, etc., and for them a more slender story would suffice.
The bottom line is - who is the target audience? For a free mod, less important than for a commercial enterprise.
There is also a question of balance, and I don't mean in terms of combat, magic, armor, weapons, etc., but of the overall design of the game. Quite clearly, sureAI put much effort towards designing a beautiful and interesting world setting, and they also put much effort into the complex story. But I feel the effort on story overbalanced the "playing." I understand the problems, that they had one arm tied behind their backs because they had to work with what Bethesda gave them to start with (so I can't criticize the crashes and all the Ark loading screens), and that as some of their team departed, they just couldn't go down to the local employment office to find a quick replacement for such talent. So I lament that the" playing" (meaning the unfinished quests) didn't seem to receive quite the same emphasis as the story and setting did. I'm sure they wanted it to, and I suspect if they have the time to finish the remaining multiple quest lines, those will serve to enrich the story even further, as well as the "playing."
I also just want to complement the music and voice acting, both of which were very superb.
[sorry for the lecture, but I'm a retired professor, it's what I do!]
Thanks for your feedback! 
The thing is that we knew that the target audience of this story would be small (and we said this several times long before release). But between you and me, if you made a mod in your spare time, the question about your target audience doesn't really matter because at first you make a mod for yourself, not for others. We're not selling anything and so it is completely irrelevant whether 100 or 100.000 people will play your work.
One could say that modders want to maximize the reach of their mods and so they should increase their target audience. Of course making a famous mod is fine, but make something that you want in your spare time is more important.
Some core members of our team are working in the video game business, which is fine but in the most cases (not all) you write stories for others, for the target audience of the game you're working on and often you have to made a story that is ways simpler than you want to do. For us Enderal was a way to develop what we want. Freedom. We wanted it and we wanted it as it is, which is a great luxury.
On the other hand, there is a target audience of complex stories. Maybe it is too small to produce a AAA game for that small audience, but it is great to know that we gave those people a game that they wanted. Usually, games are made for fun and if you prefer a complex and dark story, things become complicated because there are almost none of such games on the market. We gave them such a game for free and people are very thankful for that. We received tons of positive feedback via email or social media, ten times more than negative feedback and I can say... receiving so much more positive feedback in the internet (where are so many haters everywhere) is a completely unknown phenomenon for almost all video game developers.
The other thing is... the question of balance. There are tons of well written side quest and two very complex guild quest lines, they are already written and voiced but not implemented in the game. There were plans of complex crafting, alternative main quest and gameplay features but nobody could implement them. We started Enderal with a large team and seven scripters for quests and gameplay. Almost all of them leaved our project because quest scripting in Skyrim is a pain in the ass. We made the game with two scripters. Which are also writers, level designers and project leaders. These scripters are Nicolas and I and we never found new scripters in the modding community. We started those projects 2003. For 13 years ago. At this time it was ways easier to find people with scripting skills, it was even easier with Nehrim. But in Skyrim's community, there are almost none quest scripters, especially not in Germany. At the point we realized that we would never find enough scripters to complete our vision (I remember, it took 5 years to build the game as it is, it would take 10 years or more to made RPG content like AAA games with only two members), Enderal's game world and story were already written and we had to decide whether cancel the project or cut it down to release it, with tremendous consequences for side content, side features and balancing.
At the end of the day I don't think that it is possible to make a full RPG (with non-linear site content like Skyrim did) in a modern and complex AAA Engine as modders anymore.
The thing is that we knew that the target audience of this story would be small (and we said this several times long before release). But between you and me, if you made a mod in your spare time, the question about your target audience doesn't really matter because at first you make a mod for yourself, not for others. We're not selling anything and so it is completely irrelevant whether 100 or 100.000 people will play your work.
One could say that modders want to maximize the reach of their mods and so they should increase their target audience. Of course making a famous mod is fine, but make something that you want in your spare time is more important.
Some core members of our team are working in the video game business, which is fine but in the most cases (not all) you write stories for others, for the target audience of the game you're working on and often you have to made a story that is ways simpler than you want to do. For us Enderal was a way to develop what we want. Freedom. We wanted it and we wanted it as it is, which is a great luxury.
On the other hand, there is a target audience of complex stories. Maybe it is too small to produce a AAA game for that small audience, but it is great to know that we gave those people a game that they wanted. Usually, games are made for fun and if you prefer a complex and dark story, things become complicated because there are almost none of such games on the market. We gave them such a game for free and people are very thankful for that. We received tons of positive feedback via email or social media, ten times more than negative feedback and I can say... receiving so much more positive feedback in the internet (where are so many haters everywhere) is a completely unknown phenomenon for almost all video game developers.
The other thing is... the question of balance. There are tons of well written side quest and two very complex guild quest lines, they are already written and voiced but not implemented in the game. There were plans of complex crafting, alternative main quest and gameplay features but nobody could implement them. We started Enderal with a large team and seven scripters for quests and gameplay. Almost all of them leaved our project because quest scripting in Skyrim is a pain in the ass. We made the game with two scripters. Which are also writers, level designers and project leaders. These scripters are Nicolas and I and we never found new scripters in the modding community. We started those projects 2003. For 13 years ago. At this time it was ways easier to find people with scripting skills, it was even easier with Nehrim. But in Skyrim's community, there are almost none quest scripters, especially not in Germany. At the point we realized that we would never find enough scripters to complete our vision (I remember, it took 5 years to build the game as it is, it would take 10 years or more to made RPG content like AAA games with only two members), Enderal's game world and story were already written and we had to decide whether cancel the project or cut it down to release it, with tremendous consequences for side content, side features and balancing.
At the end of the day I don't think that it is possible to make a full RPG (with non-linear site content like Skyrim did) in a modern and complex AAA Engine as modders anymore.
Thank you for your explanation, I understand all of what you say. It is an outstanding mod, especially considering all the limitations. I wonder if there will ever be another complete game mod by sureAI. You all must need some time off from modding -- or maybe not, as it is your passion.
Did you decide to mod Skyrim just because of the TES construction kit? Would it be possible to do such a mod on another game such as Witcher 3?
Well, wherever your paths take you, good luck (and I hope someday the Golden Sickle quests and Rhiata (sp?).
Did you decide to mod Skyrim just because of the TES construction kit? Would it be possible to do such a mod on another game such as Witcher 3?
Well, wherever your paths take you, good luck (and I hope someday the Golden Sickle quests and Rhiata (sp?).
Quest scripting in Skyrim is pita? You don't say!
Seriously though - I am under impression that the scope of story/playing/world of Enderal is roughly similar to that of Divinity: Original Sin, so I wouldn't worry about target audiences that much. D:OS also had that single big city surrounded with fixed-leveled wilderness, above all other superficial similarities that come to my mind.
Seriously though - I am under impression that the scope of story/playing/world of Enderal is roughly similar to that of Divinity: Original Sin, so I wouldn't worry about target audiences that much. D:OS also had that single big city surrounded with fixed-leveled wilderness, above all other superficial similarities that come to my mind.
Hey Badgesareus,
Thanks for your feedback! I can pretty much only repeat what Johannes said. I'm also very glad the translation turned out good.
The linearity of the main quest is something we are completely aware of. There were some things we would have done differently (and, for example, we initially planned for two more Black Stone quests, which should have also been highly non-linear), but all in all, the story Enderal tells isn't all about player agency. As a quest writer, we intended to "loosen up" the linearity of the main-quest by adding non-linear side-quests and guild questlines - the Golden Sickle quest-line (which has five different endings, and not a single lengthy cut-scene) and the Rhalâta were meant to provide such. While the Sickle will be patched in soon, the Rhalâta didn't make it into the game due to the reason's Johannes (Metanoeite) mentioned in his post.
However, I don't know yet what I personally will do after finishing my book project (which I'm currently doing). Given that the feedback to Enderal is so good, it might be an option to create an addon which implements some of the stories that didn't make it into the game, and maybe even create some new quest-lines (A treasure-hunter/archeologist guild would be awesome, with a quest-line that centers on Thalgard) which allow for greater player freedom (while at the same time staying true to our story-heavy roots).
The Witcher 3 engine would have been amazing, of course, but it released a little too late. My, I wish we would have had CD ProjektReds resources (particularly their amazing team). But, as Johannes said, in the end we were only two scripters for every single quest (and game-play element!) in Enderal. #HumbleBrag
Best,
Nic
Thanks for your feedback! I can pretty much only repeat what Johannes said. I'm also very glad the translation turned out good.
The linearity of the main quest is something we are completely aware of. There were some things we would have done differently (and, for example, we initially planned for two more Black Stone quests, which should have also been highly non-linear), but all in all, the story Enderal tells isn't all about player agency. As a quest writer, we intended to "loosen up" the linearity of the main-quest by adding non-linear side-quests and guild questlines - the Golden Sickle quest-line (which has five different endings, and not a single lengthy cut-scene) and the Rhalâta were meant to provide such. While the Sickle will be patched in soon, the Rhalâta didn't make it into the game due to the reason's Johannes (Metanoeite) mentioned in his post.
However, I don't know yet what I personally will do after finishing my book project (which I'm currently doing). Given that the feedback to Enderal is so good, it might be an option to create an addon which implements some of the stories that didn't make it into the game, and maybe even create some new quest-lines (A treasure-hunter/archeologist guild would be awesome, with a quest-line that centers on Thalgard) which allow for greater player freedom (while at the same time staying true to our story-heavy roots).
The Witcher 3 engine would have been amazing, of course, but it released a little too late. My, I wish we would have had CD ProjektReds resources (particularly their amazing team). But, as Johannes said, in the end we were only two scripters for every single quest (and game-play element!) in Enderal. #HumbleBrag
Best,
Nic
A book project? That sound interesting, what's that all about? In German or English? It would be great if some day the Rhalâta could be done, it would be nice to see the undercity put to more use, so much effort was already invested to create it.
Yeah,CD ProjektRed did have just a wee bit more resources!
Yeah,CD ProjektRed did have just a wee bit more resources!
There is one thing I have my problems with in your summary: " the casual gamer client"
To say it with Futurama's Nixon: "Computers may be twice as fast as in 1973, but your average voter is as drunk and stupid as ever." If I was a game designer, I'd gather a crowd of good marketing experts and give a shit about "the casual gamer client". We have to advance, so fulfilling the simple dreams of the average consumer is just a capitalist dead end.
Sorry for being so direct, but I don't like beat around the bush.
To say it with Futurama's Nixon: "Computers may be twice as fast as in 1973, but your average voter is as drunk and stupid as ever." If I was a game designer, I'd gather a crowd of good marketing experts and give a shit about "the casual gamer client". We have to advance, so fulfilling the simple dreams of the average consumer is just a capitalist dead end.
Sorry for being so direct, but I don't like beat around the bush.
So are you saying the role of the "good marketing experts" would be to raise the awareness of the "casual gaming client" so they will be receptive to something a bit deeper, so that an excellent game wouldn't have to be "dumbed down" quite so much to reach them?
I think something like that could be done in a game like Enderal by having options in the dialogs so that a casual gamer (or casual reviewer?) could get on with the quest/fight/whatever, and those who enjoy a deep story could also get that. For example, in the finale with the machine, the dialog is rather long. There might be an option like [I've kept a journal of all that I've seen, do you want to read it?] as an alternative to the long history. That's already been done in the game in some dialog sequences where there is an option [More].
I think something like that could be done in a game like Enderal by having options in the dialogs so that a casual gamer (or casual reviewer?) could get on with the quest/fight/whatever, and those who enjoy a deep story could also get that. For example, in the finale with the machine, the dialog is rather long. There might be an option like [I've kept a journal of all that I've seen, do you want to read it?] as an alternative to the long history. That's already been done in the game in some dialog sequences where there is an option [More].
badgesareus wrote:A book project? That sound interesting, what's that all about? In German or English? It would be great if some day the Rhalâta could be done, it would be nice to see the undercity put to more use, so much effort was already invested to create it.
Yeah,CD ProjektRed did have just a wee bit more resources!
As for the Rhalâta, yeah, I would really like to see that questline make it's way into the game, too. We'll see how things are once I get back. Maybe that would be good time to ask people for donations, because I doubt my book is going to make me (or the team) rich anytime soon.
How you implement "a complex and ingenious story" decides whether it's good or bad.
The Soulsborne series executed this very well, where the meat of the story is told mostly using environmental storytelling. The action-packed gameplay attracts those who don't care about the story, while the complex and ingenious story draws in those who appreciate well-written stories.
The Soulsborne series executed this very well, where the meat of the story is told mostly using environmental storytelling. The action-packed gameplay attracts those who don't care about the story, while the complex and ingenious story draws in those who appreciate well-written stories.
Just my two Endralean pennies worth.
Are some of us reading to much into the story? It's actually provoked discussion over some beers. How many story lines in games today can you say that about?
Or maybe we're reading too much into a game and are full of it. ; )
Enderal seems to have competing philosophies & world views.
Seems like one faction (or at least a couple of characters) = Karl Marx "Religion is the opium of the people." Get rid of it.
Others seem utilitarian. "Maybe so, but religion helps bind society together & who wants anarchy?"
Then you have the hedonistic egoist, "Don't care except maybe what's in it for me? Pleasure... What else is there? People just want to be happy, or if not happy then at least content."
And finally sort of middle ground. "False gods and manipulating people-- no... Not cool, but that doesn't mean *all* spirituality is superstition. If not something greater than yourself-- what kind of life is that?"
Then you have the life, death-- is this real element added to it. Prevents the story from becoming too serious about the religion angle. And if that's not enough-- a quest for a serial killer. Who could ask for more?
Bottom line, I was really impressed by the idea. Probably showing my age, but "Dungeons & Dragons" was story telling first, then the nerd dice, monsters & treasure bath. ; )
So I like the balance & the difficulty. Good puzzles, challenging baddies, and game that actually has a plot rather than FPS mayhem.
Final thought-- determination! It's inspired me to get back into modding. I mean how many years did it take the dev's to work on this? Thinking it had to have been a group effort. Writers, concept artists, computer artists making the meshes & textures, voice actors, and of course the programmers! Unpacked the scripts BSA to make a quick start CharGen mod & think there's almost 9,000! : 0 !
I don't think people who complain, realize the amount of work that had to have gone into this game. Plus the support. They're probably not getting much sleep working on the patches.
Are some of us reading to much into the story? It's actually provoked discussion over some beers. How many story lines in games today can you say that about?
Or maybe we're reading too much into a game and are full of it. ; )
Enderal seems to have competing philosophies & world views.
Seems like one faction (or at least a couple of characters) = Karl Marx "Religion is the opium of the people." Get rid of it.
Others seem utilitarian. "Maybe so, but religion helps bind society together & who wants anarchy?"
Then you have the hedonistic egoist, "Don't care except maybe what's in it for me? Pleasure... What else is there? People just want to be happy, or if not happy then at least content."
And finally sort of middle ground. "False gods and manipulating people-- no... Not cool, but that doesn't mean *all* spirituality is superstition. If not something greater than yourself-- what kind of life is that?"
Then you have the life, death-- is this real element added to it. Prevents the story from becoming too serious about the religion angle. And if that's not enough-- a quest for a serial killer. Who could ask for more?
Bottom line, I was really impressed by the idea. Probably showing my age, but "Dungeons & Dragons" was story telling first, then the nerd dice, monsters & treasure bath. ; )
So I like the balance & the difficulty. Good puzzles, challenging baddies, and game that actually has a plot rather than FPS mayhem.
Final thought-- determination! It's inspired me to get back into modding. I mean how many years did it take the dev's to work on this? Thinking it had to have been a group effort. Writers, concept artists, computer artists making the meshes & textures, voice actors, and of course the programmers! Unpacked the scripts BSA to make a quick start CharGen mod & think there's almost 9,000! : 0 !
I don't think people who complain, realize the amount of work that had to have gone into this game. Plus the support. They're probably not getting much sleep working on the patches.
To be honest, I only see complaints about Enderal in 4chan and it isn't any novelty that the site is filled with teens who shits over everything for the sake of shitting and looking cool.
fefejooj wrote:To be honest, I only see complaints about Enderal in 4chan and it isn't any novelty that the site is filled with teens who shits over everything for the sake of shitting and looking cool.
Part of my point though was how demanding people can be-- maybe not understanding what a PITA the CK is and scripting. Not to mention knowing other apps.
Maybe it's the "4chan" crowd or its mentality that's the result of what I see (imho) as a decline in the quality of Skyrim mods. It's regarded by some as just a fetish game. Story is irrelevant-- looks are everything. We used to call them graphics whores.
What's nice about Enderal so far, is that it's still new and... An OT editorial in a spoil box.
Hopefully I won't offend anyone. Moderators please feel free to edit or delete this post.
Kind regards,
--Bruce
Couldn't have said it better. Enderal was quite refreshing because the game didn't grabbed my hands towards the objective with quest markers everywhere, I had to actually search the objectives for myself and there are no guides on the internet to spoil the fun. IMO people who plays RPG games for the sake of rushing the highest tier item is playing the wrong type of game. But yeah, soon or late it'll pop wikis that spoils the objectives of the game and several "11 years old cute Lishara" mods flooding the main-pages just like what happened with Skyrim modding.
Regarding being a modder... I make simple mods and up them on the worshop for a game called "Hatred" (UE4), even through what I make isn't anywhere close to Enderal, my time spent on my 4 mods gave me an insight of what a modder has to go through in order to put their wishes on a game.
I had to learn some stuff about blueprints scripting, rigging models in maya, edit musics for seamless loops in Audacity, all of them from scratch early this year, then the last part of the work was beta testing my mods for myself to look for bugs I could fix and some aspect that seemed off to tweak it. At least if people knew the amount of effort required to learn everything from scratch to create a simple themed mod (model swap + soundtrack overhaul), then they wouldn't be so entitled at people who create stuff for them for free.
For this very reason I tend to incarnate the DCO mod author and write some shitty lulz descriptions that makes easy for every maggot to interpretate "I don't take requests". It isn't that I don't take requests at all, I even did a manhunt themed mod for a friend of mine, but if we get too soft, then people try to put reins on us..
Well, my reasons are simple:
1- I'm a simple guy creating simple things I want to put in a game;
2- Unfortunately people tend to be very entitled for stuff they haven't any right for and are getting for free. I've seen many cases of entitled brats pressing and trolling several modders in both Skyrim and GTA modding scenes because something in said mod wasn't what they wanted or how they wanted.
It's better safe than sorry, so apollodown has my kuddos for his methood of getting rid of entitled kids
Regarding being a modder... I make simple mods and up them on the worshop for a game called "Hatred" (UE4), even through what I make isn't anywhere close to Enderal, my time spent on my 4 mods gave me an insight of what a modder has to go through in order to put their wishes on a game.
I had to learn some stuff about blueprints scripting, rigging models in maya, edit musics for seamless loops in Audacity, all of them from scratch early this year, then the last part of the work was beta testing my mods for myself to look for bugs I could fix and some aspect that seemed off to tweak it. At least if people knew the amount of effort required to learn everything from scratch to create a simple themed mod (model swap + soundtrack overhaul), then they wouldn't be so entitled at people who create stuff for them for free.
For this very reason I tend to incarnate the DCO mod author and write some shitty lulz descriptions that makes easy for every maggot to interpretate "I don't take requests". It isn't that I don't take requests at all, I even did a manhunt themed mod for a friend of mine, but if we get too soft, then people try to put reins on us..
Well, my reasons are simple:
1- I'm a simple guy creating simple things I want to put in a game;
2- Unfortunately people tend to be very entitled for stuff they haven't any right for and are getting for free. I've seen many cases of entitled brats pressing and trolling several modders in both Skyrim and GTA modding scenes because something in said mod wasn't what they wanted or how they wanted.
It's better safe than sorry, so apollodown has my kuddos for his methood of getting rid of entitled kids
I haven't checked at Nexus, but would wager few if any stories & quests. Probably just mods for hacked swords, spells, armor and the ever popular beauty packs. To each his own. ; )
You uploaded to Steam? Ha! Braver than I am. Don't remember if shared anything at the old PES or not, but by 2012 mods were getting ridiculous & feedback juvenile. Usually just share with friends via dropbox or something. Underground. : )
You uploaded to Steam? Ha! Braver than I am. Don't remember if shared anything at the old PES or not, but by 2012 mods were getting ridiculous & feedback juvenile. Usually just share with friends via dropbox or something. Underground. : )
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