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[Freestonew]

hi all.

I recently installed enderal again, a new computer. I played until I got to Riverville and there I took on a few quests.

by now, I have installed maybe 12 to 15 mods.

in riverville I opened my map and uuugh! the map was corrupted! a glitzy map with no quest markers and not even riverville there on the map.
eventually after checking the skyrim ini and reading, I found that if I disabled all of my mods the new paper map now works, complete with quest markers.

then to check each mod. aha! seems that any mod that alters the objective world space, if not updated for the new map, will glitz the map!
I had to uninstall
--bank safes.
--tam log cabin, the nice cabin in riverville.
--harvest overhaul.
--eu3teleport mod.

the magic symbol quest mod has been updated very recently, like yesterday, it works with the map.

please, mod makers, update your mods for the paper map!

but many modders might have stopped modding years ago.

freestone

[Buccaneer]

--tam log cabin, the nice cabin in riverville.

Oh no. Are you saying the Tam Log Cabin will not work with the updated version of Enderal?? I seriously don't think I would enjoy playing Enderal as much without that cabin.

[Hoxyd]

Not sure about this, but guess you can fix that display problem by creating a mod which edits the Enderal worldspace after the patch 1.2.4.0 and set this mod last in the load order.

[Freestonew]

--tam log cabin, the nice cabin in riverville.

Oh no. Are you saying the Tam Log Cabin will not work with the updated version of Enderal?? I seriously don't think I would enjoy playing Enderal as much without that cabin.

yup.
if i have that cabin, goodbye map! all i would get is a poor rendition of the old map without a single quest mrker. not even a town. not even riverville. not even *your* marker on the map, where you are.
i suspect that any mod that adds markers to the map, will not work until patched.

problem might be, as i see that many mods were made back in about 2015...2016, that these mod makers have moved on to other things in their lives. suddenly two to three years have gone by.

as the game updates over and over again, probably yet more mods will fall behind. their might come a time when one should never update enderal again and just play as is.

what about the DLC?! will it break most mods? will it require a new game?

seems i have hardly played the big rpgs, for the last few years.....either i have ruined the game through over modding or worse, a mod comes out that really requires a new game start!

freestone

[Buccaneer]

If the problem is the placement of the cabin marker on the map, maybe a simple edit to its script removing the placement would solve it?

But good thing I hadn't updated and as much I love the Enderal team and the phenomenal work they have done, putting out an update that breaks too many things may not have been the wisest move; esp. when the 3D map was working fine.

[Hoxyd]

As stated, try to create a new esp with the new patch installed and edit the Enderal Woldspace. Load this esp with the Launcher last in the load order. This could overwrite all changes made by plugins created with the old map system.

[urst]

..., putting out an update that breaks too many things may not have been the wisest move; esp. when the 3D map was working fine.

would you say the same about a commercial game?
it doesn't break anything in unmodded Enderal, and SureAi isn't responsible for anything beyond that

sure, mods no longer working isn't nice, but blaming the developer like that :/ ?

there's a difference between
"oh no, the new feature broke all mods ever, that sucks" and
"oh no, the new feature broke all mods ever, they shouldn't have released it"

[badgesareus]

There's an old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." SureAI "fixes" many things that aren't broke, and that often results in unforeseen problems. The 3D map wasn't "broke", and in fact, I prefer it. On the 3D map, I can see mysterious ruins, castles, etc. if I look closely, places I want to try to reach, and I have to do some exploring to get there. With the paper map, any place I haven't already found is blank. So OK, it shows roads, for those who apparently can only explore by following a road.

Another example of fixing things that aren't "broke" is the constant changing of things in practically every update for "balancing." If a particular weapon or magic is a bit overpowered, well, that happens in virtually every RPG game. So sometimes a player might have invested in a particular skill, only to find that after a "balancing" change some weapon or magic is now linked to a different skill in the name of balancing, and there is no option to respec. If a sword does 1000 damage instead of an intended 100, I would say that is broken and needs to be fixed. But if it does 120 damage instead of 100, so what, no need to get all hyper and rebalance it.

The Forgotten Stories DLC is not just adding the 2 previously planned quest chains, they are making some very significant changes to other areas and have warned that we may not be able to play the DLC with old save games, requiring a restart. If this will be the situation with an unmodded Enderal, I can just imagine all the difficulties that might exist for those who use mods.

would you say the same about a commercial game?

Well, commercial developers have to satisfy their customers or go broke, so they focus on fixing the things that are "broke", not on fiddling with everything else. When they come out with DLC or expansions, they are crafted so the players can continue on with their game, not requiring them to start over from the beginning. I would have preferred to see SureAI do a simple DLC that just added/completed the 2 quest chains Golden Sickle & Rhalata; quicker and easier, without requiring a restart.

So SureAI is planning some major changes with the DLC such as the new class -- ghost whisperer or whatever it's called, and I bet that will result in some bugs and unintended consequences.

[Buccaneer]

..., putting out an update that breaks too many things may not have been the wisest move; esp. when the 3D map was working fine.

would you say the same about a commercial game?
it doesn't break anything in unmodded Enderal, and SureAi isn't responsible for anything beyond that

sure, mods no longer working isn't nice, but blaming the developer like that :/ ?

there's a difference between
"oh no, the new feature broke all mods ever, that sucks" and
"oh no, the new feature broke all mods ever, they shouldn't have released it"

I understand but I am going to have to lean towards what badgesareus said. I realize that the 3D map wasn't originally intended but after so many players thoroughly enjoying the game and modders building on top of that, it should have been called a 'settled feature'. If many players were 1) complaining about the 3D map or 2) the 3D map causing the game to become unplayable, then that would be a good candidate to fix. But I do not recall either scenarios. I love the 3D map (considering the extraordinary popularity of #3 A Quality World Map - which gives you the option of 3D or Paper) because it helps see how to get up or down a terrain.

As stated, try to create a new esp with the new patch installed and edit the Enderal Woldspace. Load this esp with the Launcher last in the load order. This could overwrite all changes made by plugins created with the old map system.

Thank you, I'll give that a try.

[Freestonew]

..., putting out an update that breaks too many things may not have been the wisest move; esp. when the 3D map was working fine.

would you say the same about a commercial game?
it doesn't break anything in unmodded Enderal, and SureAi isn't responsible for anything beyond that

sure, mods no longer working isn't nice, but blaming the developer like that :/ ?

there's a difference between
"oh no, the new feature broke all mods ever, that sucks" and
"oh no, the new feature broke all mods ever, they shouldn't have released it"

I understand but I am going to have to lean towards what badgesareus said. I realize that the 3D map wasn't originally intended but after so many players thoroughly enjoying the game and modders building on top of that, it should have been called a 'settled feature'. If many players were 1) complaining about the 3D map or 2) the 3D map causing the game to become unplayable, then that would be a good candidate to fix. But I do not recall either scenarios. I love the 3D map (considering the extraordinary popularity of #3 A Quality World Map - which gives you the option of 3D or Paper) because it helps see how to get up or down a terrain.

As stated, try to create a new esp with the new patch installed and edit the Enderal Woldspace. Load this esp with the Launcher last in the load order. This could overwrite all changes made by plugins created with the old map system.

Thank you, I'll give that a try.

I think it is said that one problem painter artists have is that the painting is never finished! the temptation to Tinker is always there.

thus a game is a piece of art, never finished, always something more to add.

often there is a point where one can declare a work is finished. the onlooker would see that is so. ah, but in the artist's heart and soul, he Knows differently.

I too have over modded a game more then once until it breaks. nothing is ever finished, even in mod installing. there are times I feel I ought to play games that never can be modded as they are Finished, warts, bugs, and all. messing with a modded game can ruin a game. messing *with* the game can ruin the mods and even the game itself.

so they Tinker. there is ALWAYS more stuff they can add. a rich world can only be made richer and the richer the world is, the more stuff that can be added.

there has to be, myself, in parallel, where I must Play, not install mods. I might now not install any more patches, just to play this wonderful world as it now is. or I never will.

---they will add the dlc....I wait.
months later the bugs that the dlc has caused will be fixed and a new game must be started just for that....I begin again.
then a new ultra-mod is made by someone and I really do need to begin a new game!....I begin yet again.
the ultra mod introduces bugs so I have to stop playing and wait till the patch.
patch is made then I have to begin again.

I die of old age, waiting; I am 76 now as it is!

so I Must Choose. Now.
to Play.

I have not begun skyrim for reasons like this, too, *both* versions, old and SSE!

freestone

[Buccaneer]

Freestonew, well said sir, you have the heart of poet! And here I thought I was the old guy here (at 57).

I think the definitive word in your post is "add", which I agree as a tinkerer should do. In my opinion, adding a Paper map (esp. one that I praised as a cartographer) is wonderful - but should it have come at the expense of "subtractions"?

[Caleb8980]

Freestonew, well said sir, you have the heart of poet! And here I thought I was the old guy here (at 57).

I think the definitive word in your post is "add", which I agree as a tinkerer should do. In my opinion, adding a Paper map (esp. one that I praised as a cartographer) is wonderful - but should it have come at the expense of "subtractions"?

Just my 2 cents here:
#1: the old map did not only look bad, there were people complainig about it. Do a thorough search on reddit and here and you will find quite a number of posts concerning that topic.
#2: The old map actually did cause some bugs, e.g. the crash if you opened the map in Old Hatolis - which is fixed by the new map.
#3: we asked here, on Facebook and on reddit if we should release the map now, or with FS. Anybody who knows how to mod or how to use a plethora of mods should know what it entails when you change such a feature right now, but there was not even ONE post going in that direction; most of the people were on board of that change. Complaining now, after its release, is imho a bit petty and not really fair.

We did not include the new map to bully anybody, even if some people here seem to think just that.

[Tamira]

Enderal Log Cabin has been updated and should work again.

--tam log cabin, the nice cabin in riverville.

Oh no. Are you saying the Tam Log Cabin will not work with the updated version of Enderal?? I seriously don't think I would enjoy playing Enderal as much without that cabin.

[badgesareus]

How about recalling a few comments by stuemper:

https://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php? ... map#p80921

https://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php? ... map#p70872

That sounds to me like "the end, case closed," not "we're working on it, maybe next year."

Do a thorough search on reddit and here and you will find quite a number of posts concerning that topic.

Why should I search reddit, or any other forum? This is THE SureAI forum. There may be 100 other forums that discuss Enderal, but they are not THE forum. Have you heard the phrase "the silent majority"? Generally, some people like to complain whereas the the silent majority who satisfied with how things are remain silent. So, you have 10 or 20 people on reddit who want a paper map, and thousands or tens of thousands who were satisfied with how things were.

So, now I know. If I can get a couple dozen people to go on reddit and say they think Enderal should have laser rifles and hand grenades, SureAI will get right on it and make the change. Hey, I've read MANY complaints about the frequent loading screens in Ark, why hasn't SureAI jumped on that to eliminate them? Oh my mistake, I read those complaints on the SureAI forum, not on reddit. Sorry!

[urst]

Why should I search reddit, or any other forum? This is THE SureAI forum. There may be 100 other forums that discuss Enderal, but they are not THE forum. Have you heard the phrase "the silent majority"? Generally, some people like to complain whereas the the silent majority who satisfied with how things are remain silent. So, you have 10 or 20 people on reddit who want a paper map, and thousands or tens of thousands who were satisfied with how things were.

So, now I know. If I can get a couple dozen people to go on reddit and say they think Enderal should have laser rifles and hand grenades, SureAI will get right on it and make the change. Hey, I've read MANY complaints about the frequent loading screens in Ark, why hasn't SureAI jumped on that to eliminate them? Oh my mistake, I read those complaints on the SureAI forum, not on reddit. Sorry!

the silent majority will only post to complain.
how many people do you know that "want to speak to you manager, because you did a damn good job"?
reddit was an example here.

look over facebook, look at the news regarding the ingame map.

oh, look.

Looks great. Any chance to add a paper map of the Undercity? That's where I really get lost.

you're not complaining either.


sorry, but this whole thing really pisses me off.
I'm not saying one can't prefer the 3D map and be miffed about the change,
but that goddamn entitlement to say "they shouldn't included x feature, because some stuff may not work",
is really something else.

when Skyrim came out A LOT of people complained about that odd 3D modell we're apparently always carrying around.
a flat map was deemed impossible, because of the marker issues (probably said that already)
Enderal was supposed to have a map like that on release (as stated multiple times as well).
so your comparison with "laser rifles and hand grenades" is complete nonsense. (but you probably know that)

and the frequent loading screens were "fixed" by introducing the fasttravel - signposts.
would you rather have about 10fps in the city?

/rant

[badgesareus]

Artist: urst
Well, that explains your rant.

14.09.2017 12:57badgesareus wrote:
Looks great. Any chance to add a paper map of the Undercity? That's where I really get lost.

I said it "looks" great. I didn't say that I was happy to see the 3D map replaced, and I didn't make any comment about its utility since I hadn't played with it. I also expressed an interest in a paper map of the Undercity as there was no map of that, either 3D or otherwise.

look over facebook, look at the news regarding the ingame map.

Ah, first reddit, now facebook. Anywhere else? (except, of course, the developers' own forum of SureAI). By the way, your link "news" goes to the SureAI announcement by Stuemper, not to facebook.

and the frequent loading screens were "fixed" by introducing the fasttravel - signposts.
would you rather have about 10fps in the city?

Of course, clicking on a signpost goes to -- a loading screen (except in the Undercity, where there are still the old traditional loading screens, none of that fancy signpost stuff). 10fps in the city -- ah, like some people experienced in Erothin, making SureAI rather sensitive to that. Doesn't bother me, I'm a slow walker, gives me time to smell the bread.

this whole thing really pisses me off.

Cool, I need to check my profile, I think there is an "achievement" for that.

[Buccaneer]

Tamira: Thank you very much!!!

On being in the silent majority who comes here to complain. Seriously? I am late to this forum, not signing up until June (well after I put in 150 hours), so I have missed most of the discussions when this forum was much more active. I have praised this game to the high heavens, here and elsewhere, the only game I have given a 10/10 (not a perfect game but with consideration that it came from a small development team). But to take out a feature that worked great (just like the modded 3D maps do in Skyrim) without an option to use the old or the new, one should expect criticisms - it goes with the territory. It would make sense to do this with the DLC (where I would not expect to use an old save) but as a minor release? I did compliment the paper map when it was presented earlier but somehow I had missed that it was a replacement map. Even though I would prefer a 3D map, like I do in Skyrim, I can live with it now that Tamira made the cabin work.

[urst]

Artist: urst
Well, that explains your rant.

yes, I expected that.
but rest assured, even if I actively hated the new feature, I'd have no more polite words for the (by some people) shown entitlement.

Looks great. Any chance to add a paper map of the Undercity? That's where I really get lost.

I said it "looks" great. I didn't say that I was happy to see the 3D map replaced, and I didn't make any comment about its utility since I hadn't played with it. I also expressed an interest in a paper map of the Undercity as there was no map of that, either 3D or otherwise.

and now there are people complaining about some MODS not working.

look over facebook, look at the news regarding the ingame map.

Ah, first reddit, now facebook. Anywhere else? (except, of course, the developers' own forum of SureAI). By the way, your link "news" goes to the SureAI announcement by Stuemper, not to facebook.

"look at the news regarding the ingame map"
"the news goes to the SureAI announcement by Stuemper, not to facebook"

indeed.
maybe I should have specified Forum news.
what Caleb before me and I meant was "look at the community ANYWHERE except maybe the threads labeled 'I hate the map'"

and not only in these news.
people asked about "ingame map pls?" when that thing was revealed as interactive map.
(bit more in the german forum)

and the frequent loading screens were "fixed" by introducing the fasttravel - signposts.
would you rather have about 10fps in the city?

Of course, clicking on a signpost goes to -- a loading screen (except in the Undercity, where there are still the old traditional loading screens, none of that fancy signpost stuff). 10fps in the city -- ah, like some people experienced in Erothin, making SureAI rather sensitive to that. Doesn't bother me, I'm a slow walker, gives me time to smell the bread.

"doesn't bother me"
well, I'd rather have a loading screen than 10fps.
seems like a tie

this whole thing really pisses me off.

Cool, I need to check my profile, I think there is an "achievement" for that.

probably

On being in the silent majority who comes here to complain. Seriously? I am late to this forum, not signing up until June (well after I put
in 150 hours), so I have missed most of the discussions when this forum was much more active. I have praised this game to the high
heavens, here and elsewhere, the only game I have given a 10/10 (not a perfect game but with consideration that it came from a small
development team). But to take out a feature that worked great (just like the modded 3D maps do in Skyrim) without an option to use
the old or the new, one should expect criticisms - it goes with the territory. It would make sense to do this with the DLC (where I would
not expect to use an old save) but as a minor release? I did compliment the paper map when it was presented earlier but somehow I had
missed that it was a replacement map. Even though I would prefer a 3D map, like I do in Skyrim, I can live with it now that Tamira made
the cabin work.

that wasn't directed at you.
take a look at the forum, a whole lot of the people asking "how can I roll back" (and similar)
signed up just for that.

and making it optional was apparently not possible.

[Spasticon1]

I myself have nothing against the paper world map. It's nice. My only request is for a paper map of the Undercity. I also get lost in their.