SureAI Forums covering SureAI game titles.

[Petzi]

So I started playing not long ago, and I just decided to look a bit at how the skill progression works. One thing has me shocked, though: the Memory/Talent tree (I'm still not sure what the difference is between a memory and a talent).

When I started playing Skyrim, I always thought the Skill Tree interface was awful. You can't see the whole tree at once when you zoom in. I got used to it after a while, because there just weren't that many skills, buti t was still a terrible idea, because an interface should be usable first and beautiful second.

Enderal's Talent Tree interface has brought this awfulness to a whole new level, though. Am I the only one who thinks this? I don't understand why they make us move with our character instead of in a menu, it seems completely unnecessary. The only way to distinguish each skill is by its position, because they don't have names or icons or colors. Upon clicking one, I'm attacked by a wall of text.

The problem is that I was excited to explore the skill tree and, after looking at the interface, I feel like ignoring it. What once seemed leisurely now seems like a chore. I don't mind having a bit of text to read, it's the way the whole thing is presented.

Am I the first one to post about this? I think I'll just read about the skills in the Wiki, instead, but other advice is welcome! I don't know what spirit possessed the mind who decided this would be a good idea, I can only assume they had horrible technical issues when they tried to modify Skyrim's skill menu and this was the best solution they could find. Sorry about the rant, and I mean no disrespect to the men and women who toiled away at this beast, but man, that really felt like a slap to the face.

[badgesareus]

how skill progression works

You're mixing apples and oranges. Memories are not skills. Skills are what you find in the hero menu -- lockpicking, light armor, etc. -- which progress by reading skill books.
.

I'm still not sure what the difference is between a memory and a talent

The memories are passive; when you select a particular memory you always have it (such as, perhaps, armor +10% when wearing all light armor). Talents are active; you have to select a talent to use it and it has a cool-down period before you can use it again.

, I can only assume they had horrible technical issues when they tried to modify Skyrim's skill menu and this was the best solution they could find

You are assuming they wanted to modify Skyrim's skill menu, which I do not think was the case. This boils down to this being a mod that isn't mod. Typically, when you think of a Skyrim mod, you think of something that changes something within the game of Skyrim itself, such as a mod that puts sequins on all formal clothing or some such. Enderal is not modifying things within Skyrim but to a greater or lesser extent replacing them. Basically what SureAI wanted to do is to show what type of game they could create as developers, so in many instances they "created" things such as the memories system to intentionally be their own idea (whether good or bad I'll not comment upon), just as the landscape, dungeons, NPCs, etc. and especially the story are depicting their own original ideas.

So philosophically they were not modifying Skyrim, they were replacing it. However, as they are not a for-profit studio with massive resources, they used Skyrim and its CK to create Enderal (just as they did with Arktwend from Morrowind and Nehrim from Oblivion). To a certain extent, they were somewhat limited by Skyrim's engine and some things that would be extremely difficult & time-consuming to change. As a matter of practicality and limited resources, they used some things from Skyrim with very little change. For example, Draugrs became fleshless ones with a little textural change. By doing so they could focus what mattered most such as the story lines, visuals, etc.

[Petzi]

Thanks for the clarifications!

I agree, the way Enderal (and Nehrim) modifies the game by repurposing existing systems is pretty cool, like the signposts in Ark, for example. I still think it's a terrible way to present the Memory-Talent Tree, but it's usable. As like you said, this kind of thing is part of the spirit of the game, even if the results are sometimes ugly.

[kelticpete]

I think for me, recently, I have tried to view game mechanics as story related.

my reaction to memory tree

1) "wow cool"
2) wait I have to go here not tab here?

But it is not a skill tree. It is place in your mind, or a place in your mind and in some other dimension.

it also explains why the hero can go from urkel to thor in like 5 weeks.
they used to be all that and a bag of chips and just have to remember.

just some thoughts not facts.

[R'Q]

it's a terrible way to present the Memory-Talent Tree

It was obviously done this way in order to bypass Skyrim's engine limitations.

There are several instances when Enderal team had to use seemingly weird solutions to cope with Skyrim engine.

- ladders as teleports to another place in the same location (ladder climbing has never been possible in TES)
- character window as a separate window with its own key binding (you can't get into character window using TAB+mouse up)
- learning skills only by buying and using books (no teachers)
- memory-talent tree as a separate location, not a submenu of a character window
- apparently it wasn't possible to completely eliminate "shouts" from game, so it was renamed "talents"; besides it's used the same

I think that the SureAI team would love to have Gothic-style teachers and more convienient character window in their game, but it wasn't possible. So they used their creativity and came up with solutions mentioned above. It doesn't bother me. I have some experience in modding Morrowind and I know that sometimes you just have to "think outside the box".

[urst]

obligatory "I'm not a member of SureAI",
but there are one or two things that were openly talked about during developement;
of course I can say absolutely nothing about any technical or other reasons these features may have.

this here is just the stuff I read about in this very forum:

the skilltrees
- were at first planned the way they are now,
then scrapped because of the two loading screens,
then brought back in, because testers were dissappointed by the lack of cool looking stones
(that were already shown in earlier pics / videos )

the "leveling up skills"
- there were teachers in Nehrim, SureAI's TotalConversion of Oblivion (go play it);
apparently people complained about having to look for them.
so they tried to rework the system by letting the player buy books in advance.
(whatever you do, you're wrong )

shouts
- I seem to remember that keeping that was always the plan.
(or at least for a pretty long time)
just as "something else".

[R'Q]

go play it

I played Nehrim and I remember very well that there were teachers. That's why it suprised me that there are none in Enderal and I came to a conclusion that it wasn't possible to include them.

[badgesareus]

In February 2015, Caleb (SureAI) posted a long Q&A in the forum. In section 3.5.1:

The skill points then can be used together with a skill trainer to raise your skills like for example One Handed Weapons. Unlike Skyrim you WON'T raise your skills by using them but instead only by using skill points.

To make this system more comfortable you can also buy skill books from trainers. You then can read those books anywhere to raise the corresponding skill just as if you would have gone to a teacher.

Apparently this was changed to eliminate the trainers for some reason (maybe the answer is in the German forum).