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[Braescher]

It should be obvious now with the title: if you have not finished Enderal don't open the next spoiler box. Please. Also, if you are not prepared for a long text... I'm sorry.

[+]

First of all, I loved this story. It did something only a few games understand: it had balance. Sure, it was gloomy, dark and shocking but also had many moments of hope, victory, the feeling of achieving something. There were very sad moments but also there were few moments of happines. The way I see it, the happy moments give sadness more meaning and vice versa. You can only feel sad about a character if you have seen his happiness so you understand his pain. And happy moments are much more effective after a sad scene because you just need to feel brighter after the trauma of the sad scene. This moments were perfectly crafted with the right combination of a good voice acting, master piece soundtrack and the absurd understand the mod devs have of the power of visual tools such as lightining, background sounds and the good and old symbolism. Ok, that is my overall opinion about the mod. Now bear with me because I have one complaint about it (and to be honest this is not an exclusive complaint towards Enderal as many other games commit this "sin").

I'm am in a desperate need for a god damn happy ending. No moral ambiguity, no black and white versus grey metaphor and I don't want to choose between my life and my happiness. I just need to feel happy when I see the credits. I know I have no right to demand that the writter changes his artistic vision to please me and I do not think the endings are bad, quite the contrary they are very well written. The "destroy the beacon ending" really catches the meaning of ascension and sacrifice and the "flee to the star city" ending despite the sadness over the cleansing manages to be quite relaxing.

But somehow, I feel that my playtrough was meaningless. Maybe this is just some accumulated frustration since I have recently finished the Mass Effect series and left that game with a bitter taste in my mouth because of the ending. Maybe I think I am tired of the whole "dark fantasy" and "G.R.R Martin sadism". Whatever the case is Enderal is another story that I feel deserved a good and old fashioned happy ending with a kiss as the lovers ride towards the sunset. Ok, it did not need to be that much Disney fairytale ending, but at least something like Dragon Age Inquisition, especially in the Trespasser DLC. When I finished DAI, I felt fulfilled. I defeated my enemy despite all the times when all hope was lost. I managed to find happines in love amidst the chaos of war. I felt that despite the "kinda sequel bait" ending, my journey as the Inquisitor was complete. I won, I have conquered my enemy. I have seen death, destruction, the bloody end of the world and yet I lived to tell the tale. And that felt amazing.

People underestimate the power of happy endings. And in my opinion the daker the story is the happier the ending needs to be to achieve that feeling of victory and satisfaction. Enderal had me crying over the abandoned boy who was rejected because of his appearance. Had me worried about Calia when the Nehremese almost killed them. Had me angry with Jespar's sister for killing him. Had me frustrated at the final betrayal and the the downfall of Arantheal. And despite the moments of hope and happines I had, neither of the endings managed to make me feel like the story had a satisfactory ending. On the "destroy the beacon" I just felt sad. Not only I had to leave Calia, die (again), I also had to see Enderal be consumed due to the egocentric behavior of its leaders. I have sacrificed myself for a "chance" that other nations could defeat the High Ones. And even with the "ascencion" of the prophetess finally getting closure, I felt like I have wasted my time trying to save mankind. I felt really sad so I decided to give the other ending a try. After all the time I have spent bonding to Calia and caring about the character I just had to see that romance having a happy ending. So then I again I witnessed the destruction of Enderal as Arantheal goes "I led them to light... I alone". We fled to the Star City and for a moment during the dream sequence I though that the game would have me fail the travel and die with Calia. That would have made me a very angry and miserable human being. When I woke up, the silence made me feel like an selfish jerk that chose his personal feelings over millions of lifes. Sure, I felt somewhat happier because at least Calia was with me, but when I started thinking about Jespar and people who have died during the journey like Peghast, I felt that I have accomplished nothing. Because, sure, I am immortal soon to be god of the new world but not only I am filled with doubts such as "will Calia survive? can I make her immortal like me?" but also, I will never see this future because the game was over. Honestly a good ending should make you feel like the story is over and you have seen the ending. Imagining the future after the end of the game makes you feel like the journey even if enjoyable was pointless.

The Witcher is a good example It crushes you constanly with hard choices, dark moments, grotesque scenes. It kills the people you love. But then, at the ending (if you play your cards right), there is an actual "happily ever after". Even more on the Blood and Wine DLC since you actually sees the house that Geralt will live with his Yennefer (in my case of course) and you know from the ending of the main story that Siri is ok and she will be happy (in my case again). The tale is over, you have won.

I had some expectations about the ending of Enderal. And this is my opinion, once again I do not claim to understand about game design or story telling more than the SureAi guys. This is what I imagined and would have made me feel actually better. I thought that Enderal would be like Skyrim and let me continue playing after the ending. I wanted to beat the crap out of the High Ones and who knows maybe complete the bounty quests I did not complete, with Calia as an actual follower, like Skyrim. Buy a house in the noble quarter of Ark, explore the misteries of the island with Calia, keep on building my legend and aquiring skills to make me the most badass Entropist/Elementarist of Vyn. All of that with Calia beside me as I rode Whirlwind, my faithful donkey towards a mob of angry bonerippers. Who better than Calia and Whirwind to help me chase the "Myths and legends"? These were my expectations for the ending. AND I REALLY HOPE SOME TALENTED MODDER OVER THERE reads this text and creates a "happy ending mod" for enderal which I can marry Calia and travel the land with her after the main quest. (here's hoping *nudge nudge wink wink*)

There are no relevant plot holes in my opinion. I don't mind the mistery around the Veiled Woman for example. And despite the bitter taste the game ending gave me, the endings were well written. But, still I feel disapointed with the journey because as I have said before, not only I am tired of morally ambiguos endings and the overall feeling of time wasted that those endings create, but also a story that managed to find a good balance of opposite feelings deserves a rewarding victory with the couple living happily ever after. That, despite sounding naive and childish is much more powerful in a darker story than a dark ending or an ending that leaves you wondering "Why can't I be happy after all the pain I have been trough?".

To be honest, if there was a happy ending and the game continued as a "sandbox" after, I would continue playing it. I might even had started another playtrough. But right now, I do not want to live trough that disapointment again (even if the disapointment was quite visually beatiful and poetic).

I hope to see more from Enderal in the future. A "DLC" that continues the history or a prequel story, I don't know. I will also keep an eye for future mods or games by SureAI because this team is very talented. But please SureAI I am really tired of feeling miserable on my RPGs.

Side note: Not sure if this fits on this section or if it fits better on Questions, Critique & Wishes. I'm sure the moderators will judge that correctly.

[Ragnarok]

It should be obvious now with the title: if you have not finished Enderal don't open the next spoiler box. Please. Also, if you are not prepared for a long text... I'm sorry.

[+]

First of all, I loved this story. It did something only a few games understand: it had balance. Sure, it was gloomy, dark and shocking but also had many moments of hope, victory, the feeling of achieving something. There were very sad moments but also there were few moments of happines. The way I see it, the happy moments give sadness more meaning and vice versa. You can only feel sad about a character if you have seen his happiness so you understand his pain. And happy moments are much more effective after a sad scene because you just need to feel brighter after the trauma of the sad scene. This moments were perfectly crafted with the right combination of a good voice acting, master piece soundtrack and the absurd understand the mod devs have of the power of visual tools such as lightining, background sounds and the good and old symbolism. Ok, that is my overall opinion about the mod. Now bear with me because I have one complaint about it (and to be honest this is not an exclusive complaint towards Enderal as many other games commit this "sin").

I'm am in a desperate need for a god damn happy ending. No moral ambiguity, no black and white versus grey metaphor and I don't want to choose between my life and my happiness. I just need to feel happy when I see the credits. I know I have no right to demand that the writter changes his artistic vision to please me and I do not think the endings are bad, quite the contrary they are very well written. The "destroy the beacon ending" really catches the meaning of ascension and sacrifice and the "flee to the star city" ending despite the sadness over the cleansing manages to be quite relaxing.

But somehow, I feel that my playtrough was meaningless. Maybe this is just some accumulated frustration since I have recently finished the Mass Effect series and left that game with a bitter taste in my mouth because of the ending. Maybe I think I am tired of the whole "dark fantasy" and "G.R.R Martin sadism". Whatever the case is Enderal is another story that I feel deserved a good and old fashioned happy ending with a kiss as the lovers ride towards the sunset. Ok, it did not need to be that much Disney fairytale ending, but at least something like Dragon Age Inquisition, especially in the Trespasser DLC. When I finished DAI, I felt fulfilled. I defeated my enemy despite all the times when all hope was lost. I managed to find happines in love amidst the chaos of war. I felt that despite the "kinda sequel bait" ending, my journey as the Inquisitor was complete. I won, I have conquered my enemy. I have seen death, destruction, the bloody end of the world and yet I lived to tell the tale. And that felt amazing.

People underestimate the power of happy endings. And in my opinion the daker the story is the happier the ending needs to be to achieve that feeling of victory and satisfaction. Enderal had me crying over the abandoned boy who was rejected because of his appearance. Had me worried about Calia when the Nehremese almost killed them. Had me angry with Jespar's sister for killing him. Had me frustrated at the final betrayal and the the downfall of Arantheal. And despite the moments of hope and happines I had, neither of the endings managed to make me feel like the story had a satisfactory ending. On the "destroy the beacon" I just felt sad. Not only I had to leave Calia, die (again), I also had to see Enderal be consumed due to the egocentric behavior of its leaders. I have sacrificed myself for a "chance" that other nations could defeat the High Ones. And even with the "ascencion" of the prophetess finally getting closure, I felt like I have wasted my time trying to save mankind. I felt really sad so I decided to give the other ending a try. After all the time I have spent bonding to Calia and caring about the character I just had to see that romance having a happy ending. So then I again I witnessed the destruction of Enderal as Arantheal goes "I led them to light... I alone". We fled to the Star City and for a moment during the dream sequence I though that the game would have me fail the travel and die with Calia. That would have made me a very angry and miserable human being. When I woke up, the silence made me feel like an selfish jerk that chose his personal feelings over millions of lifes. Sure, I felt somewhat happier because at least Calia was with me, but when I started thinking about Jespar and people who have died during the journey like Peghast, I felt that I have accomplished nothing. Because, sure, I am immortal soon to be god of the new world but not only I am filled with doubts such as "will Calia survive? can I make her immortal like me?" but also, I will never see this future because the game was over. Honestly a good ending should make you feel like the story is over and you have seen the ending. Imagining the future after the end of the game makes you feel like the journey even if enjoyable was pointless.

The Witcher is a good example It crushes you constanly with hard choices, dark moments, grotesque scenes. It kills the people you love. But then, at the ending (if you play your cards right), there is an actual "happily ever after". Even more on the Blood and Wine DLC since you actually sees the house that Geralt will live with his Yennefer (in my case of course) and you know from the ending of the main story that Siri is ok and she will be happy (in my case again). The tale is over, you have won.

I had some expectations about the ending of Enderal. And this is my opinion, once again I do not claim to understand about game design or story telling more than the SureAi guys. This is what I imagined and would have made me feel actually better. I thought that Enderal would be like Skyrim and let me continue playing after the ending. I wanted to beat the crap out of the High Ones and who knows maybe complete the bounty quests I did not complete, with Calia as an actual follower, like Skyrim. Buy a house in the noble quarter of Ark, explore the misteries of the island with Calia, keep on building my legend and aquiring skills to make me the most badass Entropist/Elementarist of Vyn. All of that with Calia beside me as I rode Whirlwind, my faithful donkey towards a mob of angry bonerippers. Who better than Calia and Whirwind to help me chase the "Myths and legends"? These were my expectations for the ending. AND I REALLY HOPE SOME TALENTED MODDER OVER THERE reads this text and creates a "happy ending mod" for enderal which I can marry Calia and travel the land with her after the main quest. (here's hoping *nudge nudge wink wink*)

There are no relevant plot holes in my opinion. I don't mind the mistery around the Veiled Woman for example. And despite the bitter taste the game ending gave me, the endings were well written. But, still I feel disapointed with the journey because as I have said before, not only I am tired of morally ambiguos endings and the overall feeling of time wasted that those endings create, but also a story that managed to find a good balance of opposite feelings deserves a rewarding victory with the couple living happily ever after. That, despite sounding naive and childish is much more powerful in a darker story than a dark ending or an ending that leaves you wondering "Why can't I be happy after all the pain I have been trough?".

To be honest, if there was a happy ending and the game continued as a "sandbox" after, I would continue playing it. I might even had started another playtrough. But right now, I do not want to live trough that disapointment again (even if the disapointment was quite visually beatiful and poetic).

I hope to see more from Enderal in the future. A "DLC" that continues the history or a prequel story, I don't know. I will also keep an eye for future mods or games by SureAI because this team is very talented. But please SureAI I am really tired of feeling miserable on my RPGs.

Side note: Not sure if this fits on this section or if it fits better on Questions, Critique & Wishes. I'm sure the moderators will judge that correctly.

Actually, my only concern with the probable DLC that may be coming (even though I would love to play it) is if they change anything of relevance in the main story. The two endings are as they were supposed to be.

Development of secondary characters? Guild quests and so forth? I'm game.
Just stay clear of the main story: it is done and very well done at that!

[Braescher]

Yeah, the story is very well written and wrapped up indeed. Still, a happier tone would have made, in my opinion, a better ending overall. I supose that contuining the game as a sandbox is a problem because of the whole extinction thing but then again I think that this story did not deserve to have the cleansing to be a true possibility. Maybe the fact that Skyrim is a never ending game made me expect Enderal to also be one or maybe the sheer size of Enderal with so much land not covered by the main story made wish that I had time after the storyline to explore it if only to avoid the infamous feeling of "ludonarrative dissonance". Because I do not feel compelled to explore the world because of the urgency of my mission. I feel like: "The Order needs me to stop this diabolical enemy. But first lemme enter this cave that is away from the road and has nothing to do with the urgent task I have". When I play this type of RPG I tend to be VERY immersed on the storyline, so I couldn't just explore caves, dungeons and misteries while Arantheal was constanlty reminding me that the end was near. I felt that nothing was more important than stoping the High Ones and everything else would have to wait. It is the same thing that happens in other Bethesda games. "Oh I need to prevent Alduin from devouring the world, but first lemme engage a guild in pursuit of grand larceny and riches" or "Damn I need to find my son after spending 200 years in cryo sleep, but first lemme grow some vegetables for a settlement full of people I don't really care about". The difference is that you can postpone that in Skyrim and Fallout. You can focus on your goal and then pursuit the other misteries of the land on your own pace without having to worry about the end of the world. Sure, I did explore some dungeons and went sidequesting sometimes. But the majority of the "sidequest" content I made was before I reached Ark and discovered that the Cycle was going to destroy civilization soon. Other than that I did some quests when the main story required me to wait for a day or two.

Maybe if any modder feels like I do we will have our own version of the Mass Effect MEHEM mod, that gave us a happy ending. Who knows. For now, I feel somewhat frustrated with the ending despite enjoying the writting of both endings.

[Ragnarok]

Yeah, the story is very well written and wrapped up indeed. Still, a happier tone would have made, in my opinion, a better ending overall. I supose that contuining the game as a sandbox is a problem because of the whole extinction thing but then again I think that this story did not deserve to have the cleansing to be a true possibility. Maybe the fact that Skyrim is a never ending game made me expect Enderal to also be one or maybe the sheer size of Enderal with so much land not covered by the main story made wish that I had time after the storyline to explore it if only to avoid the infamous feeling of "ludonarrative dissonance". Because I do not feel compelled to explore the world because of the urgency of my mission. I feel like: "The Order needs me to stop this diabolical enemy. But first lemme enter this cave that is away from the road and has nothing to do with the urgent task I have". When I play this type of RPG I tend to be VERY immersed on the storyline, so I couldn't just explore caves, dungeons and misteries while Arantheal was constanlty reminding me that the end was near. I felt that nothing was more important than stoping the High Ones and everything else would have to wait. It is the same thing that happens in other Bethesda games. "Oh I need to prevent Alduin from devouring the world, but first lemme engage a guild in pursuit of grand larceny and riches" or "Damn I need to find my son after spending 200 years in cryo sleep, but first lemme grow some vegetables for a settlement full of people I don't really care about". The difference is that you can postpone that in Skyrim and Fallout. You can focus on your goal and then pursuit the other misteries of the land on your own pace without having to worry about the end of the world. Sure, I did explore some dungeons and went sidequesting sometimes. But the majority of the "sidequest" content I made was before I reached Ark and discovered that the Cycle was going to destroy civilization soon. Other than that I did some quests when the main story required me to wait for a day or two.

Maybe if any modder feels like I do we will have our own version of the Mass Effect MEHEM mod, that gave us a happy ending. Who knows. For now, I feel somewhat frustrated with the ending despite enjoying the writting of both endings.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I knew that Enderal had a fixed ending before playing, so I took care of exploring everything I could (I think I unlocked the whole map locations) before triggering the Main Quest, so that I could then pursue the main story fully immersed.

Make no mistake: Exploring in Enderal, even before triggering the main story, is outstanding and very rewarding.

I just disagree with what you say regarding the endings: they are as they should be, in my opinion.
Although Nicolas seems to have hinted at a third secret ending in the probable DLC, so... let's see.

[Braescher]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I knew that Enderal had a fixed ending before playing, so I took care of exploring everything I could (I think I unlocked the whole map locations) before triggering the Main Quest, so that I could then pursue the main story fully immersed.

Make no mistake: Exploring in Enderal, even before triggering the main story, is outstanding and very rewarding.

I just disagree with what you say regarding the endings: they are as they should be, in my opinion.
Although Nicolas seems to have hinted at a third secret ending in the probable DLC, so... let's see.

Well, I kinda agree when you say the endings are as they should be. Because they are very good. Well written and conclusive indeed. The game gives you two endings and both are exactly what the Black Guardian says. But yeah, I did played this game without knowing that the ending was fixed without post endgame content, so this builds up my frustration of not having a true 100% happy ending. In a way this is as much a story topic as it is a mechanic topic. Because to give us a "sanbox" endgame they would have to discard the cleansing actually happening or they would have to be like Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect 2 had high stakes and you and your whole crew could die in a horrible manner but you also had the possibility to save everyone and play the sidequests and DLCs after the famous "Suicide Mission". And they probably choose to favor their artistic vision over the post endgame mechanic of Skyrim. That is a hard decision during delevopment.

And please give me a link of this "hint" about probable DLC because you got me curious as hell now.

Quick edit: I found this post and I am completly excited with the possibility of revisions and expansions.
http://www.forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.p ... 042#p88042

[Ragnarok]

Still, note that I wouldn't be at all concerned about a DLC following up the Star City ending, which would be about what the immortal Prophet goes through after his choice of becoming a sort of "light-born" for the new world. Plenty to explore there, which could lead to how he reacts and influences several stages of that new cycle.

Maybe we would be trying to avoid that «Pride was my fall» consequence

It probably wouldn't be canon for any sequel to Enderal, but nonetheless an interesting proposition and exploration, for sure.

[Braescher]

I can think of three possible DLCs and two of them would adress the ending somehow.

1. A prequel story of some sort in which you do not play as the prophet and that would try to answer some of our questions, maybe with more hooks to the Nehrim mod or more answers to the Veiled Woman role

2. A sort of "Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut" DLC that complements existing scenes, adds new quests and gives the "alternate secret ending"

3. Extra sidequest content and other storylines like guild quests

But my only hopes are for a happy ending with post endgame content anyway. lol. Part of me wouldn't mind crazy plot devices to make that happen. Even if it is not possible to create so much optional content as the vanilla game with the time and resources SureAI had I was hoping for a "similar" experience. You know, a game that I could come back, create a new character and play a different story. I respect and appreciate the fact they decided to have a much more focused storyline because even if Skyrim kept me interested in the urgency of the main story, I did not care too much about the characters and the events the way I cared for Enderal characters and events. But I still wanted to keep on playing Enderal after destroying the High Ones and stopping the cleansing. I think I am just hungry for more immersive RPGs like this one.

And after all, Even if the Enderal ending remains like this and we don't get DLCs I will keep following SureAI's next mod/game. You guys just joined my favorite devs list.

[Ragnarok]

I can think of three possible DLCs and two of them would adress the ending somehow.

1. A prequel story of some sort in which you do not play as the prophet and that would try to answer some of our questions, maybe with more hooks to the Nehrim mod or more answers to the Veiled Woman role

2. A sort of "Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut" DLC that complements existing scenes, adds new quests and gives the "alternate secret ending"

3. Extra sidequest content and other storylines like guild quests

But my only hopes are for a happy ending with post endgame content anyway. lol. Part of me wouldn't mind crazy plot devices to make that happen. Even if it is not possible to create so much optional content as the vanilla game with the time and resources SureAI had I was hoping for a "similar" experience. You know, a game that I could come back, create a new character and play a different story. I respect and appreciate the fact they decided to have a much more focused storyline because even if Skyrim kept me interested in the urgency of the main story, I did not care too much about the characters and the events the way I cared for Enderal characters and events. But I still wanted to keep on playing Enderal after destroying the High Ones and stopping the cleansing. I think I am just hungry for more immersive RPGs like this one.

And after all, Even if the Enderal ending remains like this and we don't get DLCs I will keep following SureAI's next mod/game. You guys just joined my favorite devs list.

I see where you are coming from.

It appears that you prefer wRPGs and what SureAI did here was to turn a successful wRPG into a mix of wRPG with a classic RPG closed story format. Enderal is much more a 3rd person story game than a 1st person character game like Skyrim is.

I understand.

For my taste, although it is fun to just "mess around" some times in an open format, I absolutely prefer this closed type, but that's me

[Braescher]

Yeah. I changed my taste. On the glory days of the PSone I played JRPGs a lot and had no problem with the straight foward plot and ending. I am still looking for the perfect balance between both styles. Mass Effect is my favorite RPG to date and it managed to "kinda mix both" open world and focused story. There was a straight foward plot going and only Mass Effect 2 had post engame content. Mass Effect 3 did that weird rollback thing after the final mission, so pretty much all of the DLC even if released quite some time later took place before the events of the final mission. Dragon Age was good at trying to balance both styles too. Skyrim was TOO MUCH open world too me to the point were I found myself with my quest log exploding with 200 quests and had no idea what to do next. Eventually I managed to focus one storyline at a time and had a hell of a good time with it for +400 hours lol. But yeah, in general I like wRPGs, I am just waiting for that perfect balance between old school and new wRPGs. Enderal almost done that, almost. It was a very memorable experience for sure and it played with my emotions quite a lot.

[Moirai]

I did have my own concerns regarding the rather negative ending, and posted those thoughts in a different topic. I won't spam it here as well, although it's arguably more relevant to this thread, but here's the link if you are interested:

http://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 234#p88234