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Topic title - Some suggestions for the hardcore mod

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Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by mandos
Posted: 31.07.2012 16:30
So judging by the information that i have gathered from other discussions and topics i think that what i would value most is an hardcore a la New Vegas. Honestly i was extremely dissapointed that Beths did not included one with the Skyrim after New Vegas. I think its even more important for Enderal, because going through all the mods that are out there for Skyrim, checking whether they are compatible, altering them if necessary is a torture which can be avoided i think...by having as dialogue in the beginning whether you d like to activate "Survival mode".
Here are some features which in my opinion could be an addition without major changes to the game, some of these ideas might not be mine, no stealing credits intended :)
1.) Hunger/Thirst/Sleep
2.) Potions effect over time and not stacking, and more powerfull
3.) real-time inventory access, no world pause
4.)Enviromental hazards
5.)VERY IMPORTANT- give us option to reduce compass markers to our liking, and possibly disable it altogether. I want to find a dungeon, not to be led to it.
6.) Running cost fatigue, and more emphasis on stamina in the fight, like it would differ depending on the time of the day, no unlimited green bars as we have in Skyrim.

I added this features because i think that they are not awfully difficult to implement (i might be wrong) and are taking a lot of know how to implement them yourself as a consumer. Not everybody might like them, so if the decision is given right at the start (like New Vegas), simple yes or no button would be an improvement over anything that is currently present in elder scrolls.
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by Nicolas Samuel
Posted: 31.07.2012 16:57
Hi there,

Thanks for your suggestion. :)

I cannot yet tell you more than that we are planning similar changes. We also believe that daily needs such as water, sleep and food adds to the immersion, although we do not want to exaggerate. :)
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by NamelessHero
Posted: 01.08.2012 13:01
I agree but it should be available only on higher difficulties.
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by mandos
Posted: 01.08.2012 17:14
NamelessHero wrote:
I agree but it should be available only on higher difficulties.
Why? When you can opt out of it it doesnt matter what difficulty you are playing on, easy or extreme.
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by badgesareus
Posted: 01.08.2012 23:22
daily needs such as water, sleep and food adds to the immersion, although we do not want to exaggerate.
1. Immersion is a tricky word, as different people might define it differently. What one player considers immersion might be repetitive boring actions by another. Perhaps you could tell us how the developers define immersion, and how you decide the point at which it becomes exaggerated?

2. If sleep will be required periodically, perhaps I can carry a blanket to spread on the ground and click on it to sleep (in the wilderness). Can I have a flint to start my own campfire to roast some meat? Why must I always depend on someone else to make a fire?

3. Who lights all the candles, torches and braziers in the caves & dungeons? I can enter a dungeon that hasn't been explored in a thousand years, but there are candles and torches burning in it. Perhaps it would be more immersive if some of these places were completely dark, except for whatever light I can create with a torch or magically (or with night vision)?
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by Nicolas Samuel
Posted: 02.08.2012 12:55
badgesareus wrote:
1. Immersion is a tricky word, as different people might define it differently. What one player considers immersion might be repetitive boring actions by another. Perhaps you could tell us how the developers define immersion, and how you decide the point at which it becomes exaggerated?
You're right, Immersion is a tricky word indeed. I'll try my best!
I personally define Immersion as the feeling you experience whenever you "lose yourself" in the game world. We all know it - You become one with your avatar, you feel as if their actions are your actions. Every game has different means to evoke this feeling, though. A Hack n' Slay - Game such as Diablo 2 doesn't aim to immerse through its complex, emotional dialogues. I personally experience immersion whenever every part of the game just "fits into the picture". Whenever everything just "feels right" and adds to the the game as a whole.

So, what does that mean for Enderal? Enderal isn't a Hardcore-Survival game that tries to evoke Immersion via its realistic simulation of real world. The compelling features of Enderal will neither be extreme realism nor survival challenges. I think it would be exaggerated to implement a complex "daily needs"-system which is too complex, simply because survival is not a main feature of our game. So, to make the long story short: We think that, for example, giving the player significant boni when having a full stomach, is a nice feature and adds to the immersion, but requiring the player to watch his daily intake of calcium is exaggerated. ;)

Am I making any sense? You posed a difficult question there. :)
badgesareus wrote:
2. If sleep will be required periodically, perhaps I can carry a blanket to spread on the ground and click on it to sleep (in the wilderness). Can I have a flint to start my own campfire to roast some meat? Why must I always depend on someone else to make a fire?
We don't know if we'll implement the need for sleep, but your idea sounds great. Finding a good spot for a camp, lighting a campfire and maybe chatting with your companions before going to rest sounds awesome. We'll see how much time will pass until the core of the game is finished. It'd definitely be a great "Nice-to-have"-Feature.
badgesareus wrote:
3. Who lights all the candles, torches and braziers in the caves & dungeons? I can enter a dungeon that hasn't been explored in a thousand years, but there are candles and torches burning in it. Perhaps it would be more immersive if some of these places were completely dark, except for whatever light I can create with a torch or magically (or with night vision)?
You hit the bull's-eye here. That's exactly what we're planning. ;)

Greetings,

Latiro
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by badgesareus
Posted: 02.08.2012 17:55
I personally define Immersion as the feeling you experience whenever you "lose yourself" in the game world. We all know it - You become one with your avatar, you feel as if their actions are your actions.
Yes, I feel it when using the bow is realistic, as in Nehrim, where I must aim high for a far away target, and guess how much to lead a moving target. Sometimes I make an almost impossible shot and feel great about it! Also there are times when I suddenly am at a very high place and it is so realistic I feel the butterflies in my stomach as if afraid I might fall.

The problem is that there is a dichotomy between the player and the avatar. For example, in most RPG games, there is a world map and it is blank at the beginning of the game, slowly being revealed as the world is explored; or, as in Skyrim & Nehrim, all locations are undiscovered until they have been traveled to in the game. However, in most games the avatar has been living in some area for much or all of his life, perhaps 15-20 years or more, so how can it be that he has never discovered any other locations, even another village down the road, or a local farm? It is the player, not the avatar, who is encountering the locations for the first time. So really, the world map is the player's map, not the avatar's, but then some NPC will mark a location on it! A dichotomy.

A strange example (perhaps only to me) is language. In Skyrim, my avatar understands his own language (let's call it Nordish), so as the game (in my version) is in my native English, I (the player) understand everything just as my avatar would understand everything in Nordish. However, I think perhaps I feel even more immersion in Nehrim because there is no English spoken. Obviously my avatar is fluent in Nehrimese. However, I, the player, do not understand a word of it, so when the NPCs speak in Nehrimese (which sounds very much like German), my subconscious mind is telling me I am indeed in a foreign land and I am feeling more immersed, even though my avatar is not in a foreign land. Fortunately, I (the player) have a spell or a ring or something that translates Nehrimese into English, and the words just pop up in front of my eyes as if by magic. I wonder, am I the only one who finds the game more immersive with only English subtitles and no English vocals?

This must sound bizarre, it must have been some of those odd ingredients I ate in Skyrim! :D
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by Nicolas Samuel
Posted: 02.08.2012 18:21
I have to say, I've never heard that before. :mrgreen: We are planning an English synchronization for Enderal, however. The reason for that is that we want to deliver a lot of complex dialogue and, since the cutscene possibilities in Skyrim are very limited, therefore need to rely on good voice acting. We might think about speaking German or Spanish for the people of Qyra (another continent) in Enderal. ;)

By the way, we quite fell in love with your idea about the camping. I just told Hoxyd about it and we felt as if it would need very little effort to implement it. There would be certain locations in the wilderness (such as a cavern, or simply a glade in a forest) where the player can activate his camping kit. The screen would fade to black and after it fades back in there would be a campfire and a set-up tent. The player has the option to rest there and with a small chance monsters might appear while he's asleep.
With this we wouldn't need to place Inns everywhere in the country (Since we will probably disable the option to rest or wait normally)...

How does that sound to you?

Kind regards,

Latiro
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by NamelessHero
Posted: 03.08.2012 14:08
I think you should still place inns because they add a lot of character to the game, alas this hasn't been the case in Skyrim, where they pretty much looked all the same and nothing interesting ever happened in them and I DO HOPE you will make the inns look more unique(or at least some of them) and interesting:

For instace, each day there is a chance for a random event to happen: Maybe a bard comes and tells an interesting story which leads to an indirect quest?Maybe there is a drinking contest or some peculiar person finds his way there?You could also add this to towns and villages!

Something like this would be cool http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/21553
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by Nicolas Samuel
Posted: 03.08.2012 14:51
Of course we'll still place the Inns! Essential quests and dialogues will take place there. :) And other interesting things will happen there... I totally agree that they add a lot of character to the game. :)
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by badgesareus
Posted: 03.08.2012 20:21
the player can activate his camping kit. The screen would fade to black and after it fades back in there would be a campfire and a set-up tent. The player has the option to rest there and with a small chance monsters might appear while he's asleep.
That sounds good. I hope the campfire will function to be able to cook meat (if there is cooking in the game).
Since we will probably disable the option to rest or wait normally
I would like to see the option to wait remain in the game. I might have to wait an hour for a shop to open, and I don't think I could camp in front of the door!

Regarding my remarks about language, don't think too much about them. I was trying to make a point (I think) that immersion can be created by realistic elements (such as the subconscious mind hearing a foreign language in a foreign land) , and it can be created by the game play being so interesting, fun, challenging, etc. that one forgets he is playing a game. Any Austrians on your team? I'm beginning to think I need some Freudian help!

I agree with the opinion above about the Inns. In Skyrim, they were all cookie-cutter designs, and there was no reason to visit them unless some quest forced you to go to them. How about a dart board? Perhaps the physics in the game for arrows would be easy to adapt. (Hey, I've been spending too much time watching the olympics.)
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by mandos
Posted: 03.08.2012 21:02
Latiro wrote:
Since we will probably disable the option to rest or wait normally...
How does that sound to you?
It sounds divine! I think if you manage to keep in game this than ill be hooked to enderal forever!:)
In my opinion It would tie even better with the gameplay if you would have sleep requirement in game, as you said no overkill, 6 hours a day should suffice :) and besides in terms of lore of the game the sleeping is the most required for me (more than hunger and thirst), since it defines nightime and daytime as two very distinct periods with its own atmosphere and uses.
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by mandos
Posted: 05.08.2012 12:53
I just got an idea for maybe little more smooth implementation of basic needs such as hunger and thirst. The point would be in instant consumption of food picked up in the world. The "proper" stackable food would still be available in taverns or obtainable via cooking, but food in dungeons or world would be instantly "boosting" some abilities or statistics, never going directly into your inventory, creating a little more dynamic needs system...Food restoring some portion of health, water bottles stamina or mana, etc...
What do you think?

P.S: It would be cool if in this way you could buy a soup or meal in tavern, after a dialogue it would appear in front of you on the "bar", and you could eat right away without going into your inventory (maybe with a neat sitting animation, but thats just a pipe dream:). You could still buy some portable food, such as chicken mcnuggets or something:), but buying a soup and packing it in your backpack in a plate is not perhaps the brightest idea:) It would bring a "cantina" sort of experience into the game, and few more features for inns to cozy-up the atmosphere. And it would be necesary i suppose for these various levels of food to have distinctive qualities to incentivize the use of them, ranging from poor (dungeon found food) to excellent (tavern-cooked meal), and different taverns could offer different quality food, inn at the crossroads near some major city would have better meals than local tavern full of drunks in city which population is...5... :)
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by badgesareus
Posted: 06.08.2012 02:36
food in dungeons or world would be instantly "boosting" some abilities or statistics, never going directly into your inventory
Actually, I think most food in dungeons should be completely eliminated. If a dungeon is in use, such as by bandits or wizards, it's expected to find food items in the areas where they are living. But it is a bit absurd to be in a dungeon that hasn't been visited in hundreds of years, open a box or barrel, and find a cabbage that looks like it was picked yesterday. Most of the food in dungeons, if found at all, should be rotten and inedible, and if you do take a bite, your abilities drop due to salmonella poisoning. :(

And by the way, I've figured out that Nehrim is located somewhere in Ireland, as there are no snakes! :wink:

Going back to food and a possible "need" to eat, if all that happens when I eat something is that it heals a small number of health points or has a brief positive effect on some ability, why bother? Easy enough to heal up by resting or a potion. So to make eating an immersive experience, make it actually useful. For example, say I need to sleep to heal up after a battle. Let's say, no matter how long I sleep, I only heal 50%. However, if I eat a meal before sleeping, I heal 100%, and if I eat a really good meal (perhaps even some complex recipe I prepare myself) I heal 110% after sleeping. Also, health potions would have to be scarcer and harder to make to encourage the use of food and sleep.

Regarding "waiting" I think it is necessary as I might have to wait an hour for a shop to open, or a couple of hours for night to fall. But just eliminate healing when waiting, so I can't heal simply by waiting.
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by mandos
Posted: 06.08.2012 17:44
I agree with the part of more powerfull potions affecting over time. It would eliminate abuse of them as well as need to stack 100+ on each kind. As for the part about obsolete food, thats exactly the reason why i think it should have only menial effect if its found in dungeons and likewise. (At least in Skyrim) most dungeons are populated by humans with foodso its kinda self-explaining. Of course i have no idea whether Enderal will be like that so i wont draw any conclusions. My whole point is that the food obtained from taverns would be most valuable for satysfying hunger, and of course restoring part of the health was just an idea how to make dungeon food worth some (even if little) use. I would personally abolish all the healing (including sleeping) except spells an potions, and rather introduce a healer shrine (or something like that), or healers as an occupation for an npc in settlements.
badgesareus wrote:
Regarding "waiting" I think it is necessary as I might have to wait an hour for a shop to open, or a couple of hours for night to fall. But just eliminate healing when waiting, so I can't heal simply by waiting.
i dont like to repeat myself, so i will just paste my opinion on this from answer which i gave to you in another topic

your objection that you need often to wait 1 hour or so is legit, but it only works because the whole system is setup the way it is, that you dont need to be aware of such issues as time, part of the day that you are currently in, etc.
If you for example would have to sleep in game, the game would get a new dimension, in which you would be sleeping at night and questing in a day, or vice versa for a thief, or any combination in between. I t would take actual planning and decision making, not just rushing from one dungeon to another, unloading stuff at the trader, rinse,repeat.

For example with day/night dynamics, you shouldnt have this need to wait one hour very often, because you would be required to sleep, and after arriving to town right after he shops are closing you could just go to bed and rest to the morning where they will be opened... with all the benefits that sleep brings (whatever they will be)
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by badgesareus
Posted: 06.08.2012 18:22
you could just go to bed and rest to the morning where they will be opened
That would be practical, if every shop had exactly the same hours and opened precisely on time. I don't know how it will be in Enderal, but in Skyrim, that was not the case. The Skyrim "hints" stated that shops were generally open from 8 AM to 8 PM. But they very often opened later than 8 AM, sometimes after 10 AM. So I might arrive at 8:30 AM , not open, wait 1 hour, still not open, wait another hour, finally open. No doubt you will say I could just sleep until 11 AM and for sure the shop would be open, but that would be wasting quite a bit of time, and be rather unrealistic that I would sleep so late so often.
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by mandos
Posted: 06.08.2012 18:51
badgesareus wrote:
The Skyrim "hints" stated that shops were generally open from 8 AM to 8 PM. But they very often opened later than 8 AM, sometimes after 10 AM. So I might arrive at 8:30 AM , not open, wait 1 hour, still not open, wait another hour, finally open. .
You are quite right, but my impression was that in Skyrim the various opening times were rather a bug with unlocking the door (perhaps a script?) and not intentional game element, judging by the fact that i could get in in various times and after performing kinda ritual in front of the door. By the way exactly same issue was in Oblivion
Neverthless, the shops that were constantly on different schedule were so few and completely arbitrary in Skyrim that i see no issue and conflict with every regular shop opening in Enderal in an exact time. Sure if it fits the lore it can be adjusted,like a fence thats selling and buying stolen goods can be opened for bussiness during nightime, but that is to be expected of shady characters, and you wouldnt try to find him in the middle of the day.
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by greenlight
Posted: 21.08.2012 23:29
Maybe shops should have different opening times that are displayed as a short text message in the upper left corner (like if you find a new location. just a subtle message, not a big message box popping up) when entering or activating the closed door.

Anyway, I think eating and sleeping shouldn't be too essential for the game. Let's say, if you don't sleep for 16 hours, the avatar will feel tired, moves a little slower and does less damage with weapons (not drastically). On the other hand, eating or sleeping will remove those negative effects and perhaps add some positive ones for a few hours.
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by Defianc4
Posted: 03.10.2012 00:45
Just a random idea that the original poster made me think of: how cool would it be to have a quest involving an avalanche?
Re: Some suggestions for the hardcore mod - by mandos
Posted: 03.10.2012 17:29
Defianc4 wrote:
Just a random idea that the original poster made me think of: how cool would it be to have a quest involving an avalanche?
LOL its an interesting idea but i cant imagine that something like that could be implemented and at the same time be anywhere near looking good enough...maybe a massive rock slide is more doable...but real time avalanche is i believe beyond the capabilities of this engine. What i meant by environmental hazards is more like penalty for swimming in water, freezing water, etc; something that would give us reason to look for all those overlooked bridges, and not just jumping into water whenever i feel like shortcutting distance :)
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