SureAI

There seems to be endless discussion about who the aged man and veiled lady are, whether the story is all a dream, etc. But I haven't seen any discussion of how this fable is linked to the real world.

At one point Constantine goes on quite a rant about the evils of religion, and his description seems to almost perfectly reflect what "radical Islam" has been doing over the past several years. Is everyone too politically correct to discuss what seems to be a major theme in the story? [I wish I had written down everything Constantine said, maybe someone else can come up with it.] This is especially ironic given that Constantine the Great was a strong patron of Christianity and the church.

Secondly, there is the theme of civilizations being utterly destroyed and cleansed. This brings to mind the Biblical Great Flood -- a cleansing of sorts. What about the complete disappearance of Atlantis, was it cleansed? There are stone monoliths many thousands of years old, and they exist even though they would be difficult to recreate with our modern technology, such as the 11,000 year old monoliths of Göbekli Tepe, Turkey. Are these remnants of a cleansed civilization?

Surely this would make a great "compare and contrast" question as often asked on some college exam.

Aside from that and a few other remarks I don't think there are other references to make Enderal a political commentary of our times instead of philosophical story.

But if I had to find some parallels between Enderal and our world I would say that the Order could represent the Western world and Nehrim could represent ISIS. After the infighting in Nehrim ( the Middle East ) a new leader rises that threatens the Order in order to bring all of the world to a "higher state of being".

We don't know what the High Ones are except that they are quite primitive in that they desire survival above all else, they are cruel and unforgiving and desire the destruction of all empires. I would say that the High Ones could represent the ideology of Islam. I doubt anyone could argue that the islamic world isn't primitive compared to the west even today, it is repressive towards its own followers and it enforces horrific laws. The islamic population tend to have much higher birthrate ( parallel to the High Ones ) and some islamic leaders did wish to conquer the world or to destroy the west.

The Order has become godless (atheism) but still follow the philosophy of their gods ( western culture, laws, values)
They are having trouble dealing with the threat because of the many traitors within its ranks who are at best misled fools or worse even agents of Nehrim. Parallel to our world would be the PC crowd and even many leaders of leading countries that either do not wish to recognize the threat or they see it as a way to stay in power (more voters inclined to vote for them).

If you look hard enough anything can be made political so I doubt all of these observations are intentional by the author but here you go.

Besides, Enderal doesn't really touch religion as much as Nehrim did (now that's a game where religious bashing on the one hand and religious fanaticism on the other was common place maybe a bit too much). Yes, there are people who bash religion in Enderal (Jespar, a moderate atheist and Constantine, a fanatical atheist), people who are religious (though they are mainly represented by Calia, who doesn't believe in gods per se, but rather in their ideals).

I'd say that the main philosophical question of the story setting (both in Nehrim and in Enderal) isn't the question of "Is religion good, or bad", but rather "Is order from tyranny better, or worse than suffering from freedom." So if I see some connections to the real life, it's rather in some nods to failed countries like Afghanistan, Iraq and Lybia. First there was a tyranny, then the tyrants were cast out and constant war for power came instead.

The author of Enderal's main story once stated that he was inspired by C. G. Jung, so maybe the story doesn't relate so much to any ongoing political conflicts in our world and is more about how the human psyche works. Yes, there are quite a few comments on religion or social order, but I wouldn't necessarily put that in the same context as the High Ones or the Cleansing.
I am really no expert on psychoanalysis, far from it, so if anyone can share some insights from that perspective, I would appreciate it.

I'm no expert on psychoanalysis and Jung either, but I'd say that that refers to the main story, i.e. the personal development of the Prophet. While all the remarks in this thread mostly refer to the setting and the back-story of Enderal.

That's a good comment; I wonder how most people in Syria would answer that.
Another good comment. Both of these comments provide some insight into how the story might help us understand our own world, something with more meaning than just the story itself.

We were given hint about the outlook of the devs on that matter on the German forums - in the form of a video (here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wftl5j6yKlM). To my understanding in their view bad events like the cleansing are the result of a lack of insight into people's own motivations. A person's drive is made up by his ego through his self-image. Tealor in that regard kills off the whole world because he cannot live with the idea of him failing again. He wanted to be grand but nothing ever works out for him. In the end he comes up with the ridiculous idea that he can still be the person everyone admires by killing off everyone at the temple (eventually he is quite happy saying "I brought them the light. I alone!"). Once again the high ones push him into that direction with their last appearance. As another example the player character wants to be a hero, he blindly fulfills every quest given in the hope of being the one who saves the day, the only one with the power to alter destiny. There are many others as well like Yuslan or Coarek. Each one is hellbent on reaching his goal and therefore they all become puppets for the high ones in the process. Every messenger is guilty of the outcome with his actions.

And that brings us to the next thing that we were given to think about: the topic of guilt (remember the mind prison with your inmate Aixon? Someone on the German forums figured out that Aixon = Noxia = guilt - and then there was also the direct guilt question posed by Jespar during one of his private talks, the one about the woman & domestic violence). Tealor lacks a sense of guilt while the player character is potentially loaded with it (depends on your outlook on the whole family business, you instinctively choose your side in the beginning already when you answer the other refugee's [gosh, how I hate that word] question). The lack of or an overbearing sense of guilt can both be problematic in the regard of destroying yourself and your environment as well I guess. One ignores the needs of others in his pursuit of happiness, the other one constantly seeks to repent, becoming blind to what is actually needed.

I could pull some comparisons with current day politics in that regard too. But such things were probably not intended by the devs. Nehrim seems to be more of a candidate for political matters, on the topic of freedom and religion that is (then again I never played it... ).

Hmm... there was also another video. It popped up in relation to what was wrong with the way the lightbringers handled their people. This one is more directly about religion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RfUj09pWfM

(I swapped it out for an English video of the scene since the other one was in German, this one may be a bit shorter or longer)

Most of this is old and the result of some discussion on the German forums. I wasn't very original here.

Thanks for the insight into the German forum. I wish my level of German was anywhere close to adequate to read (or even participate) there.

Guilt certainly is a major motivator of the Prophet (from the daddy dreams to Noxia to that little boy whose name I keep forgetting who tries to guilt trip the player to stay with him), and don't even mention Tealor ("I led them to the light. I, alone." The best quote of the game for me).

As for Nehrim, that game is sometimes a bit too cynical even for me.
(Nehrim Spoiler)

[+]

I mean, the whole war between Middlerealm and Northrealm seems to be caused by Taranor and Barateon disliking each other, so let's ruin the country for that.

And if what I read somewhere is true, that SureAI began writing this in 2011, then most of the similarities to contemporary world is endeed coincidental. But still quite interesting, I think.

Cool. Was waiting until finished to chime in with my own thoughts, but since already started...

Caveat: if I decide to just type & post-- this will probably be a textbook example of rambling disorganized thought. : )

Logic 2301:
Consciousness and was is it? I think most would agree that consciousness isn't something we can dissect and put in a Petri dish. It's a state of being.

The question of what this "conscious state of being" is exactly... seems to come up again & again in the game as player is knocked out, or has some waking dream sequence. The choice of "Daddy" is an interesting one. Writer trying to tell us something, or just reading too much into it?

Anyone notice the picture on Daddy's wall lifted from Blake? In the painting, Chronos (time) is eating a human torso. i.e. Time eats its own children by aging them. Wall art clutter picked because it's gory, or again... maybe a clue?

So what do we do with our time while we're conscious?

For me, what makes Enderal's story quite strong is character development. Both Calia (introvert from Jung) and Jespar (extrovert) grow as a result of experience and that's good writing.

Corney maybe, but perhaps Calia represents the dark side in all of us. Fight it, but to no avail-- just guilt and self recrimination when we-- as humans-- inevitably do something we regret later. Finally Calia accepts the 'demon' is a part of her. Accept it, and get on with life. Enjoy it! Go dancing!

Jespar of course is the opposite. That's good writing imo. Set them side by side to compare. Jespar might say, "Don't trust anyone, and don't count on anything in this life. The only constant isn't change. Life's only guarantee is that you're gonna get screwed over! So enjoy the moment and be happy while you can. Because sooner or later the other shoe is gonna drop."

This philosophy only takes him so far though. Like Calia, Jespar also grows as a person. On the ship (I think) he realizes he's still not satisfied. Why? Well no strings attached to anything or anyone... and no responsibility to any higher purpose... Partying gets old after a while right? There must be something more to this inexplicable thing we call living life. Say it's a "bitch" or say it's a "gift from God"-- makes no difference really. Both are belief systems.

So I guess I see the companion characters (and other NPCs) as really carrying the story and making it such a strong one.

As for the politics, ISIL, and fanaticism... In America we've had to endure a presidential election that won't take place for three months, and yet it feels like it has been going on for three years! Many of us are simply exhausted and tired of it.

So maybe another day for the politics of global economics, and the causes for Islamic terrorism...

Thank you for reading if you are this far.

It's great to have the skills in German to provide this information. Goes way beyond mine (Ein Bier bitte).

Maybe if you're young, 5 years ago seems like ancient history, but for some of us it has just been the flick of an eyelash!

SureAI started planning Enderal when (more or less) Bethesda announced that Skyrim would include a construction kit, if I'm not mistaken. (mid to fall 2011; Skyrim was released 11-11-2011). I don't know that they immediately started writing the whole story then, as there was extensive give and take in the SureAI forum over the next few years. Nevertheless, the attacks of the World Trade Towers (9/11) happened 10 years earlier, and by 2011 the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were going strong, so there were plenty of current political events that were presaged at that time. And the fighting in Ex-Yugoslavia -- claims of genocide, ethnic cleansing, and sides taken based on religion, happened in the 1990s. Also, it would take little for the devs to slip in some dialogue relating to more recent international political events, even late in the development, perhaps just adding a few "More" options in the dialogues. I don't recall how Constantine's rant was initiated -- CALEB, Help!

When I started this topic, I made reference to a college exam question. Now I'm beginning to think it is more of a term paper (sorry if that is just an Americanism). I would like to think that Enderal is more than just a sophisticated graphic novel.

To BigElectricCat Wow, both of you live there?

I figured I should add that this refers to a small scope because it sounds quite silly otherwise (ugh.. still sounds silly anyway). Psychology is all about the individual, therefore I believe that it cannot necessarily make statements about world affairs (and after all the main source of inspiration for this game were the works of Carl Gustav Jung, a psychoanalyst of the first hour). In politics there is usually more involved than just the mental state of a few people. What would come closest to the cleansing theme would be WW I for me in in that regard. But this too was not just the matter of a handful people making awful personal decisions about the future. Wilhelm II in particular though seems like a man who could never accept that he was guilty of his own downfall and tried to blame everyone else in exile.

Some interesting quotes from Nicolas Samuel on the topic:

"Enderal dreht sich in erster Linie um den freien Willen und innere Dämonen."

http://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?f ... ine#p84153

Translation:
Enderal revolves primarily about the free will and inner demons.

"Enderals Kernthema ist der freie Wille und das fanatische Streben nach Absolution. Der Rest - Leuchtfeuer, Hohen, roter Wahnsinn - sind eigentlich nur eine Metapher. Zumindest war das beabsichtigt."

http://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?f ... ine#p72225

Translation:
The core theme of Enderal is the free will and the fanatical pursuit of absolution. The rest - the beacon, high ones, red madness - are actually just a metaphor. At least this was the intention.

(fun fact: both quotes are taken from his replies to people who complained that Enderal is like Mass Effect 3)

Hmm... I actually wanted to find a different quote but I failed at that. Oh well... It was something along the lines of "beyond the cycle and epic battles Enderal is simply a story on a very personal level".

Still, this doesn't necessarily mean that our own interpretations need to end there. Political references forced themselves upon me as well at some points in the game and also when thinking about some of the core themes.

Take what I'll say with a grain of salt, this is my personal view of Enderal, not a guidebook how you should see Enderal themes as Enderal is far too open to come up with conclusive results.

That said, remember when Constantine started his rambling about religion - it was after you asked why he joined the Nehrimese Mage Order.
He told you that he one day went to Ostian where he saw the ugly side of religion (persecution of the infidels, reasonless killings of women and children, etc.) and it culminated in his hatred for religion.

But ask any citizen, or a priest in a temple what he thinks about Malphas and the Path. Do they seem brainwashed? In Riverville there is a (scripted, hence repeating) mass each evening in the temple.
It is about one of my personal favourites in religion (and I'm not exactly religous) - why have people to suffer death and other injustices, when an allmighty being reigns above them? (take Hiob from the Old Testament as a comparison)
Or take Calia, she never fully believed in the Light Born, but she felt that their teachings are right - as they stabilized the world and gave every human in the world a raison d'être.

So, do you think religion is inherently evil? Or good?
The answer is simply that none of both are true - how people see religion is always a result of their experiences with it. And neither Constantine, nor Calia and the rest of Malphas followers are in the wrong.

What Enderal criticizes is e. g. that no religion (apart from maybe the Buddhism) has the right to call itself peaceful - remember, that was also something that Constantine said to you.
Take Christianity, Hinduism, Taoism, the Islam or any other religion you know and tell me one which never had a part where it persecuted infidels. The Koran or the Bible both have chapters in which infidels get killed either by God or believers of said God - so how can that religion call itself peaceful?
The moment religion becomes a matter of interpretation it lost that right, because of what I stated above - how you see and also how you deal with religion is a result of your experiences.


As Stampfer said, Enderal is a story about human nature - yes it exaggerates the issue into a worldwide problem, or better said the source of all "evil" (otherwise the actual story would fall flat), but you can break it down to a personal level, and it still holds true.

So what did you do: you instrumentalized the Cleansing as a political statement - even though it hits all people in Vyn, regardless of race, gender, age or religion. As the Catharsis ending shows, beacons also exist at other parts of Vyn - so you can't even say that religious people are the source of all evil (as Coarek does )
That is what Enderal is at its base - it is a story about a lone human with a tragic past (no matter how you interpret it) and how he or she deals with it - again human nature at its best.
And it should't! Enderal is written the way it is so that people can come to their own conclusions

But I personally loved the 2 endings, because they tell you much about what kind of human you are (at least in your first playthrough).

Do you know Richard Wiseman’s “Q” test for lying?
It is a very simple test which gives a general outlook if sb is a good or a bad liar:
You tell sb to draw a Q on his forehead with his hand. If that person draws the Q so that you can easily read it, he cares much about the opinion of other people so he thinks more about what he says and how his conversation partners interpret what he said -> better liar

If he draws the Q so that he can read it easily he does not care as much about the opinion of other people (which does not mean he is selfish!) -> worse liar.

The two endings of Enderal are similar: it is a very personal choice if you would sacrifice yourself to save as many people as you can or if you rather try to survive, perhaps even at all costs.
Obviously they are hyperboles but if they are similar to the Q test in a way - yes you can choose just to go to the Starcity for the heck of it, hence it is far less suitable for a real test but it nevertheless says sth about which kind of character you have and your values.

in regards to the endings we pick leading to a deeper understanding of the type of person we are, in my case it was more the type of person my character was, as i was roleplaying.

my first character in enderal: blair, a level 54 (iirc) shadow dancer, chose to flee for the starcity for several reasons. this biggest one being (not the only one mind you)... she simply wanted to survive. in her case, mainly because for the first time in her life she actually started to live, as opposed to simply surviving. had she not evolved as a character during the game i think surviving wouldn't have even been a consideration for her (as she saw little in her life worth saving), however, i think she would have still chosen to flee. because that machine (the BG) convinced her she was instrumental to the survival of the next cycle, and that the current one was already lost with or without the cleansing, or rather this cleansing.

---several edits

from blair's point of view, you have the high-ones still causing the red madness, you have one person besides the pc who understands what the beacon actually does at this point, so if they die too (likely with the nehrimesse army surrounding the temple) and someone else uses it or builds another one then uses it without a focus (as i doubt there's another high-one's essence laying around, or a container for it handy either), the cleansing starts anyway. i could go on, but you get the drift

---edit even more
and unless i've forgotten something, isn't it impossible to get the numinos without the main character (as you need that ability of his/hers? so you wouldn't be able to use the beacon anyway, well without causing the cleansing...

Being a pragmatist , I can give two main morals of Enderal's - and Nehrim's - story:
1. Fighting against fate is completly pointless - if you predestined, then you will stay predestined even after burning books and killing strangers.
While if you're actually not predestined, then such fight even more ridiculous.
2. Killing your gods is a really, REALLY bad idea. What comes after them will be much worse.
On a more canonical side I want to point:
To be free you need knowledge. Without it you just a marionett of your wishes - and those, who are able to use them. You know, advertising and all that stuff.
And the minor aspect:
The first person at murder scene - except, of course, the detective - most likely to be the killer.

To improve. And to execute his freedom. Because there is no progress without conflict and no point in choosing without sacrificing.
Nope - Buddhism prove to be VERY violent. He was actually banished from India due to his bloodthirsty nature and still being the only dharmic religion, that have succesfully repelled Christianity three times - each one through genocide.
There is no such thing as "peaceful religion". And problem is not a religion itself, but the fact, that it is humans, who actually participate in it - and humans are full of dark passions.
For the record: atheist are obviously the worst kind of believers - take it from person, who was actually born in atheist state and spent last four years on history and philosophy of atheist movements.
Btw, no offence meant.

I've been avoiding spoilers like the plague and am only just now entering The Living Temple so I admit I haven't really figured things out yet.

I'm not sure if it's Calia who says, "people want simple answers" when talking about religion, but it really stood out to me when I heard it.

To me, this really rings true. In my own investigations, it seems religious fundamentalism is a direct response to political/cultural oppression. The Pilgrims as dissenters were forbidden places of worship within x-miles of villages/towns. Their attempts at protest and dissent resulted in having noses and ears removed by the Crown. The subsequent activities of Oliver Cromwell and the removal of "God's Representative on Earth" (i.e. Charles I) really isn't that much different to what we're seeing with fundamentalists today.

I have to disagree with Marx's statement that "religion is the opiate of the masses" and suggest Rushdie's quote, "religion is the crystal meth of the masses" is more appropriate today.

Seems to work well with what I've encountered so far in Enderal, too.

i have to agree that the statement "religion is the opiate of the masses" is incorrect. i think fear gets that particular title. and that happens to be the one universal weapon in about any religion's arsenal, fear. fear of this, fear of that, fear of becoming that. that's why i count myself among the like of firespark, though a bit less... em, extreme i suppose.

And now in the U.S., the latest religion is Fear of Emails, by pastor DJ Don!

hmm... i check my email like once every 6 months or so. and my inbox has something like 8000 messages (i'm not kidding here). so does that make me religious?