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Topic title - [spoilers] The Fleshless
https://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?t=10837
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[spoilers] The Fleshless - by Hanekem
Posted: 01.09.2016 18:48
I was thinking towards the end and the Discussion with the Black Guardian and his "the High Ones can't directly affect the world" line.
Then what *are* the fleshless? According to the Guardian they are copies of living humans, idealized copies, made by the high ones and, due to that, the High Ones know how to manipulate them.
But there is still the fact that the High Ones seem capable of making a simulation of life, self aware even and independent of them (apparently)
So they Can Affect the world in quite a direct fashion, though the question is how the fleshless are made and maintained AND how did the cycle came to be in the first place (quest for immortality?) and how it all ties together.
Then what *are* the fleshless? According to the Guardian they are copies of living humans, idealized copies, made by the high ones and, due to that, the High Ones know how to manipulate them.
But there is still the fact that the High Ones seem capable of making a simulation of life, self aware even and independent of them (apparently)
So they Can Affect the world in quite a direct fashion, though the question is how the fleshless are made and maintained AND how did the cycle came to be in the first place (quest for immortality?) and how it all ties together.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by MyLongestJourney
Posted: 01.09.2016 21:45
There are certainly many unanswered questions left to the player when the game ends.Maybe one day SureAi will give us the answers until then we can only speculate.
Personally I have been combing Nehrim wiki for lore info that would shed light to the identity of the Aged Man.I think he is a fleshless from a previous cycle that took the flee-to-a-place-unaffected by the cleansing-with his beloved option.They both shared the dream of making a new better mankind but after many failures,the Aged Man gave up and resolved to be just an observer until he decided to give our hero a chance by handing him/her the word of the dead.
The only hole I see in this theory is that the Black Guardian has not heard of another Prophet who escaped death in the hands of the Emperor per the cycle rules.Everything else fits.The Aged Man is immortal,he calls himself a fleshless eye,he keeps his beloved suspended in a preserving tank to keep her alive (obviously she is not immortal) with the magic of the Quranian Mentalists mentioned by Jespar (deep sleep) and when she is woken briefly by the player,mentions that she still believes in their dream (to break the cycle I believe).
Obviously the only direct power the High ones have is to make the emissaries and influence them with dreams.But they can not built the Beacon themselves.Somebody else has to do it for them.
Personally I have been combing Nehrim wiki for lore info that would shed light to the identity of the Aged Man.I think he is a fleshless from a previous cycle that took the flee-to-a-place-unaffected by the cleansing-with his beloved option.They both shared the dream of making a new better mankind but after many failures,the Aged Man gave up and resolved to be just an observer until he decided to give our hero a chance by handing him/her the word of the dead.
The only hole I see in this theory is that the Black Guardian has not heard of another Prophet who escaped death in the hands of the Emperor per the cycle rules.Everything else fits.The Aged Man is immortal,he calls himself a fleshless eye,he keeps his beloved suspended in a preserving tank to keep her alive (obviously she is not immortal) with the magic of the Quranian Mentalists mentioned by Jespar (deep sleep) and when she is woken briefly by the player,mentions that she still believes in their dream (to break the cycle I believe).
Obviously the only direct power the High ones have is to make the emissaries and influence them with dreams.But they can not built the Beacon themselves.Somebody else has to do it for them.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Makesin
Posted: 02.09.2016 00:56
Well, the Aged Man could predate the Black Guardian (after all, the Black Guardian says that he learnt about the Cycle during his life, which means that there were Cleansings before his cycle as well). The question then is, though, why doesn't he mention the Aged Man at all, but maybe the reason is simply that the Prophet didn't ask (after all, he mentions the Veiled Woman only after the Prophet talks about her).
And I have to agree here with Hanekem, the fact that the High Ones can create "life" is quite a powerful tool for someone who, according to the Black Guardian, is powerless. That in itself could a plot hole, a sign that the Black Guardian is not all-knowing or a proof that the Prophet, Fleshless or not, is not created by the High Ones. Hard to say which one it is though.
And I have to agree here with Hanekem, the fact that the High Ones can create "life" is quite a powerful tool for someone who, according to the Black Guardian, is powerless. That in itself could a plot hole, a sign that the Black Guardian is not all-knowing or a proof that the Prophet, Fleshless or not, is not created by the High Ones. Hard to say which one it is though.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Glycerin
Posted: 02.09.2016 01:21
I always thought fleshless was just another term for ghost. Like ghosts they have died but returned to the world. It also seems they must have some sort of unfinished business. Tealor wants to die a hero, as he thinks he deserves. The main character wants to be someone important, to be able to change things instead of being powerless, as he was before.
I assume Coarek and Yuslan are fleshless/emissaries, as well. What drives them would be simple revenge in Yuslan's case or to make the cleansing happen, no matter what, in Coarek's.
I guess these unfullfilled desires are what makes them susceptible for the High Ones' manipulations. They use them to drive their emissaries on, or they stop might otherwise and give some thought about what they are actually doing by constructing the beacon. I am not so sure if the High Ones really create the fleshless ones, or if ghosts occur "naturally" (it is a fantasy setting, after all).
I assume Coarek and Yuslan are fleshless/emissaries, as well. What drives them would be simple revenge in Yuslan's case or to make the cleansing happen, no matter what, in Coarek's.
I guess these unfullfilled desires are what makes them susceptible for the High Ones' manipulations. They use them to drive their emissaries on, or they stop might otherwise and give some thought about what they are actually doing by constructing the beacon. I am not so sure if the High Ones really create the fleshless ones, or if ghosts occur "naturally" (it is a fantasy setting, after all).
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Caleb8980
Posted: 02.09.2016 01:28
Hanekem wrote: Then what *are* the fleshless? According to the Guardian they are copies of living humans, idealized copies, made by the high ones and, due to that, the High Ones know how to manipulate them.
But there is still the fact that the High Ones seem capable of making a simulation of life, self aware even and independent of them (apparently)
Also they need to manipulate the copied person in the same way as normal humans, they cannot directly control them.
And as I said above - this means that the Fleshless people can just as easily use the Beacon to destroy them - it is a gamble in which the High Ones maximize their chances of victory due the special condition Fleshless people have.
MyLongestJourney wrote: Obviously the only direct power the High ones have is to make the emissaries and influence them with dreams.But they can not built the Beacon themselves.Somebody else has to do it for them.
Another point:
emissaries and influence them with dreams.
TL;DR: At first it may seem that the power to copy humans is very strong, but its use is often a brinkmanship. Also this power alone does not cause a Cleansing.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Makesin
Posted: 02.09.2016 01:44
I doubt they are ghosts, as they are able to have a physical contact with the world (I mean, the Prophet can have sex with either of the companions, I doubt it can get more physical than that), so they're more than mere projections.
Also, yes, I am quite certain that Taranor Coarek was a Fleshless one too, he is quite different from the man we know from Nehrim (as Taranor in Nehrim didn't exactly care about all the anti-religious nonsense of the Order, and suddenly he becomes a zealous atheist?), not sure about Yuslan though. That is, he clearly could be one, we just don't know much about him to make that assumption.
Maybe the meaning behind the Black Guardian's words is that the High Ones can't force anything to happen in the world. So they create the Fleshless Ones, but even then they can't actually control them directly (insert random ME joke: "Assuming direct control", sorry, couldn't resist) and must retort to manipulation. The result is ultimately the same as if they did everything themselves, but that in itself is actually a part of the manipulation. It must look like the High Ones cause the Cleansing, so that the humans can cause it in their fight against the High Ones..
Still, it bothers me that the High Ones can create the Fleshless Ones. Why do they have that power? And why only this particular power?
EDIT (After Caleb's post): Coarek seems himself as an Emissary, Tealor agrees with his view, the High Ones say that the only Emissary is the Prophet and the Black Guardian only mentions the Prophet and Tealor. But I think Coarek is.
Also, yes, I am quite certain that Taranor Coarek was a Fleshless one too, he is quite different from the man we know from Nehrim (as Taranor in Nehrim didn't exactly care about all the anti-religious nonsense of the Order, and suddenly he becomes a zealous atheist?), not sure about Yuslan though. That is, he clearly could be one, we just don't know much about him to make that assumption.
Maybe the meaning behind the Black Guardian's words is that the High Ones can't force anything to happen in the world. So they create the Fleshless Ones, but even then they can't actually control them directly (insert random ME joke: "Assuming direct control", sorry, couldn't resist) and must retort to manipulation. The result is ultimately the same as if they did everything themselves, but that in itself is actually a part of the manipulation. It must look like the High Ones cause the Cleansing, so that the humans can cause it in their fight against the High Ones..
Still, it bothers me that the High Ones can create the Fleshless Ones. Why do they have that power? And why only this particular power?
EDIT (After Caleb's post): Coarek seems himself as an Emissary, Tealor agrees with his view, the High Ones say that the only Emissary is the Prophet and the Black Guardian only mentions the Prophet and Tealor. But I think Coarek is.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Hanekem
Posted: 02.09.2016 02:36
Caleb8980 wrote:But you as the player are the best example how this is a power with 2 sides - while the High Ones can copy dead people there need to be some requirements before they can do so; and these are rather restrictive.Hanekem wrote: Then what *are* the fleshless? According to the Guardian they are copies of living humans, idealized copies, made by the high ones and, due to that, the High Ones know how to manipulate them.
But there is still the fact that the High Ones seem capable of making a simulation of life, self aware even and independent of them (apparently)
Also they need to manipulate the copied person in the same way as normal humans, they cannot directly control them.
And as I said above - this means that the Fleshless people can just as easily use the Beacon to destroy them - it is a gamble in which the High Ones maximize their chances of victory due the special condition Fleshless people have.
First we need to consider that the guardian is probably insane. He Witnessed a large number of cycles impotently, encased in his Goliath
Second, that his end game is to be free, he made that perfectly clear
This plays into my point above - it does not matter that the High Ones can make emissaries, the emissaries just make their aim more accessible, but they alone are a far shot from a happening CleansingMyLongestJourney wrote: Obviously the only direct power the High ones have is to make the emissaries and influence them with dreams.But they can not built the Beacon themselves.Somebody else has to do it for them.
Another point:Are Coarek and the Nehrimese Mages in the Sun Temple emissaries?emissaries and influence them with dreams.
TL;DR: At first it may seem that the power to copy humans is very strong, but its use is often a brinkmanship. Also this power alone does not cause a Cleansing.
See, they replay the cycle, risk annihilation (or at least access to the world) for the Creation of a new High One.
That seems rather strange, the creation of another one? of possible competition?
There could be something more important going on backstage, sure we have the Black Guardian's test theory, but he has like zero evidence or at least he conveys as much
Still, this is why I found the game awesome, there are gaps in the answers, we don't get all the truth and what we have is... debatable how truth it is.
It adds to the themes behind the game, to leave us with uncertainty, wondering what exactly is going on, and why the Veiled woman intervened this time and why not before. is it related to Neherim? is something else going on?
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Glycerin
Posted: 02.09.2016 02:47
Makesin wrote:I doubt they are ghosts, as they are able to have a physical contact with the world (I mean, the Prophet can have sex with either of the companions, I doubt it can get more physical than that), so they're more than mere projections.
Makesin wrote:Maybe the meaning behind the Black Guardian's words is that the High Ones can't force anything to happen in the world. So they create the Fleshless Ones, but even then they can't actually control them directly (insert random ME joke: "Assuming direct control", sorry, couldn't resist) and must retort to manipulation. The result is ultimately the same as if they did everything themselves, but that in itself is actually a part of the manipulation. It must look like the High Ones cause the Cleansing, so that the humans can cause it in their fight against the High Ones..
In that case the High ones would be no outer threat. They cannot interfere directly because they are a part of people's minds. Mankind itself would cause its own destruction due to its flawed nature. That is also why they "allow" the possibility to recognize the beacon for what it is and stop the cleansing. If people (or the emissaries in their place) were able to reflect on their actions, a cleansing would be unnecessary because they would have overcome their flaws.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Makesin
Posted: 02.09.2016 03:12
Hanekem wrote: That is, assuming the Black Guardian was not only Honest, but basing his words on Facts and not assumptions and that is an unknown.
First we need to consider that the guardian is probably insane. He Witnessed a large number of cycles impotently, encased in his Goliath
Second, that his end game is to be free, he made that perfectly clear
Certainly, and it all comes down to one question: Why?
See, they replay the cycle, risk annihilation (or at least access to the world) for the Creation of a new High One.
That seems rather strange, the creation of another one? of possible competition?
There could be something more important going on backstage, sure we have the Black Guardian's test theory, but he has like zero evidence or at least he conveys as much
The 3 people claiming to be emissaries (Tealor, Coarek and the Prophet) are all obviously changed from their past (Yuslan could be as well, we just don't know anything about him prior to the story of Enderal). Tealor went from a broken and semi-crazed prisoner to a charismatic leader of his nation, Coarek went from a somewhat cynical fighter against oppresssion to a zealot and the Prophet goes from a powerless nobody to the most talented mage/warrior/thief/whatever of Enderal in the manner of days. And I am willing to believe the Black Guardian simply from the narrative point of view: it is dangerous to believe only one side of the story, but in this case, this is the only story we are given. So, basically, if we refuse the Black Guardian's explanation of what the Fleshless Ones are, we are left with nothing at all, which is of course a valid theory in the real life, but not exactly working in a narrative.
As for the Black Guardian himself, yes, his one main desire is to be freed from his prison and to escape to the Starling City, but that doesn't make him a full liar or a fully insane person. He tells two known lies (that the Prophet's companion is dead and that the button will kill him), both of which are directly connected to his desire, and one known truth (that the Beacon will cause the Cleansing), which is tied to his secondary desire, to end the Cycle.
His other claims are that the emissaries are dead (unknown whether it's true or not, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support this claim), that the emissaries are created by the High Ones (unknown without any evidence) and that the High Ones are otherwise powerless in this world (obviously contradictory to the previous claim, but evidenced by the fact that the High Ones do absolutely nothing throughout the whole story apart of mocking the emissaries). My belief is that in neither of those cases, however, does the Black Guardian have any need to lie to the Prophet. He only knowingly lies to make the Prophet push the button (the lie about the death of the companion is, I believe, supposed to make the Prophet feel closer to death, feel sympathy to the Black Guardian and also be shocked in order not to question his lie about the button), but there's no need to lie about either of the 3 claim presented earlier.
In fact, I would go as far as to say that the Black Guardian himself didn't think about the button and being released until the Prophet asks what to do. After all, if the Guardian wished to do that, he could have done it without all the exposure, especially if he knew that the companion was in fact alive. So that leads me to the conclusion that he doesn't lie about the High Ones, at least not intentionally. Now, he could of course be crazy and unaware of the facts, but the fact that he has observed the Cycle for countless times leads me to believe that he has indeed noticed the patterns in a way no other observer could, simply because no other observer observed it for so many times.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Casper
Posted: 02.09.2016 03:23
usually in situations like this, i basically take everything i'm told, and arrange it in some kind of order (usually chronologically), then i cut away all the self serving statements and rely heavily on the statements of neutral parties, then just metaphorically slice right down the middle, that's usually as close to the truth i can get, at least in situations where there is a lot of ambiguity... i just can't figure out how to do that in the case of this game, as i suppose we don't have enough solid information, or sources to compare.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Makesin
Posted: 02.09.2016 03:27
Casper wrote:usually in situations like this, i basically take everything i'm told, and arrange it in some kind of order (usually chronologically), then i cut away all the self serving statements and rely heavily on the statements of neutral parties, then just metaphorically slice right down the middle, that's usually as close to the truth i can get, at least in situations where there is a lot of ambiguity... i just can't figure out how to do that in the case of this game, as i suppose we don't have enough solid information, or sources to compare.
Since it's a story, and not real life, I ask myself what serves the story better. And since him telling the truth serves the story in providing us with an explanation, while him telling lies basically doesn't serve the story in any way, because we don't have an alternatie explanation, I prefer to think that he mostly tells the truth.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Casper
Posted: 02.09.2016 03:29
Makesin wrote:Yeah, that is a good way, but it sadly doesn't work with the Black Guardian, as he's mostly the sole source of information on almost everything. So in this case I suggest a different strategy.Casper wrote:usually in situations like this, i basically take everything i'm told, and arrange it in some kind of order (usually chronologically), then i cut away all the self serving statements and rely heavily on the statements of neutral parties, then just metaphorically slice right down the middle, that's usually as close to the truth i can get, at least in situations where there is a lot of ambiguity... i just can't figure out how to do that in the case of this game, as i suppose we don't have enough solid information, or sources to compare.
Since it's a story, and not real life, I ask myself what serves the story better. And since him telling the truth serves the story in providing us with an explanation, while him telling lies basically doesn't serve the story in any way, because we don't have an alternatie explanation, I prefer to think that he mostly tells the truth.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Hanekem
Posted: 02.09.2016 20:33
Makesin wrote:Yeah, that is a good way, but it sadly doesn't work with the Black Guardian, as he's mostly the sole source of information on almost everything. So in this case I suggest a different strategy.Casper wrote:usually in situations like this, i basically take everything i'm told, and arrange it in some kind of order (usually chronologically), then i cut away all the self serving statements and rely heavily on the statements of neutral parties, then just metaphorically slice right down the middle, that's usually as close to the truth i can get, at least in situations where there is a lot of ambiguity... i just can't figure out how to do that in the case of this game, as i suppose we don't have enough solid information, or sources to compare.
Since it's a story, and not real life, I ask myself what serves the story better. And since him telling the truth serves the story in providing us with an explanation, while him telling lies basically doesn't serve the story in any way, because we don't have an alternatie explanation, I prefer to think that he mostly tells the truth.
That is an interesting point, however with Enderal underlying themes and how the game's story unfurls means that taking anything at face value is far from being a good idea, even if, narratively, makes sense.
After all I am sure the scenario made for Arantheal made sense to him as well, and look how that ended...
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Makesin
Posted: 02.09.2016 20:54
Hanekem wrote:That is an interesting point, however with Enderal underlying themes and how the game's story unfurls means that taking anything at face value is far from being a good idea, even if, narratively, makes sense.
After all I am sure the scenario made for Arantheal made sense to him as well, and look how that ended...
First, the timing: Tealor presents us with his theory fairly early into the story, which means that we as the players get more than enough time to ponder whether it is true or not before we are presented with evidence that shows that he was wrong. On the other hand, the BG is shown at the very end of the game and he serves as the ultimate information giver. There is nothing that follows him that could give us a different opinion. That alone makes me think that the writer's assumption was to provide us with an explanation at the very end.
Second, the contradictory evidence: Tealor's theory gets debunked at the end of the game, partially by what happens and partially by the information given by the BG. On the other hand, there is nothing that would either contradict, or support the claims by the BG. Most of the things the BG said fit the story (some of them don't), but we're not given any evidence to support it, or to disprove it. This is important, because it means that the BG has only as much value as the player gives him.
And this brings me to the previous point of narrativity. Everything a story gives us serves a purpose. There are many different purposes: it could be a red herring (i.e. a false proof which purpose is to lead the audience astray from the truth so that a plot twist can work more efficiently), it could be a Chekhov's gun (i.e. a subtle proof provided early on that serves as foreshadowing), and so forth. However, the BG doesn't really work as either of those literary devices, because of what I stated earlier: he appears too late in the story to be a red herring (because there's no plot twist afterwards) and so the only purpose he can serve is to give us answers.
Because if we assumed that he's incorrect, he serves no purpose at all. He doesn't give us answers, his false claims are not refuted later on as a plot twist, so we simply refuse his claims for the sake of not believing anything at the face value, without this refusal serving anything in the story.
If the BG appeared, let's say, in the middle of the story, then it's entirely different, because we are then left with the second half of the story to ponder on his words and to check the evidence we're provided with after his theories are presented. But that's not the case and so I am left with only two possible purposes of the BG: either to confuse the player at the very end of the story, or to provide us with an explanation. But confusing the player doesn't really work, because, again, the BG not only gives us some explanations, he is the only one to give us any explanations. And that leads me to conclude that the narrative basically demands us to believe in his words, because:
A) his only purpose that works is to provide us with an explanation and
B) we're never provided with anything to contradict his claims, other than the general "don't believe anyone".
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Casper
Posted: 03.09.2016 06:47
well, anyway... lets assume for the moment the BG isn't lying to us (other than the lies to convince us to push the big button), at least as far as he knows? now how much of that conversation is factual, and how much is supposition, and how much is being left out? because i still have issues with the idea that, beings who can't interact with the physical world in any other way, can somehow create these flessless entities or "emissaries". to me it makes more sense that it's a natural occurrence that they can accurately predict. unless they actually can interact but decide not to, maybe an ace in the hole being saved for a rainy day.
---edit
just because someone doesn't act, doesn't mean they can't.
---edit
just because someone doesn't act, doesn't mean they can't.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Makesin
Posted: 03.09.2016 13:51
Well, I don't think we can answer that until we first answer the simple question of "Who are the High Ones".
I mean, everything we know about them are assumptions. We don't actually know if there are many of them or if it's just a single force of nature. We don't really have any proof of the Cleansing being a mean of procreation for them. We literally know nothing about them, apart of the fact that they like to mock the Emissaries.
I doubt that the emissaries are a natural occurence, as it doesn't look like they're common. There are certainly many people who die who could become Fleshless based on the conditions (dying while having a strong unfulfilled desire), yet there aren't many of them. And if we look at the list of the possible Fleshless (Tealor, maybe Coarek, that high priestess of the Pyreans and the rebellious general of the Pyreans, most likely a Prophet of the Pyreans as well), and if we assume that there are only the three Emissaries (Emperor, Prophet, Messiah), that two of the Emissaries are people who were already important (leader of the Holy Order, leader of the rebellion in Nehrim, leader of the Pyrean Church, leader of the Pyrean armies), so that leads me to assume that the High Ones pick someone who can serve their cause to become a Fleshless. I know that a lack of evidence isn't an evidence of nonexistence, but the lack of people showing the traits of the Fleshless (highly increased ability, single-mindedness bordering with zealotry on fulfilling their urges) is too apparent.
Unless (another crackpot theory) the people afflicted with the Red Madness are actually Fleshless whom the High Ones don't need. But that raises too many questions, mainly where are all those dead bodies that got replicated as the Red Mad Fleshless? (And another crackpot theory - could the woman's ghost from that Riverville quest be an incomplete Fleshless?)
I'll be combining now somewhat with the theory I posted here (http://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?f ... =10#p85612) and try to do a complex explanation of the High Ones, making a lot of assumptions based on little to no evidence.
The High Ones are beings that either cause or revel (or both) in misery, especially on the mental level (nightmares, depressions, those sort of things). They most likely don't have a higher goal and the Cleansing is their ultimate goal, as it's their means of procreation (just like procreation is the ultimate goal of any other living being). They may either be primitive in their nature (that is they have no culture or civilisation and the urge to procreate is the their ultimate urge), or may even posses some kind of a civilisation on a higher plane of being, but that is ultimately irrelevant since I still doubt that the Cleansing serves any other purpose (compare this to the Reapers from Mass Effect - the cycle there served a clear goal and the harvesting was just a side effect).
So if we are to assume that the High Ones operate mainly on the fulfilling of basic urges (don't be killed, satisfy hunger, procreate), it would mean that they only hold back out of fear of being harmed, because there's no other logical explanation. If they had more powers than what they showed, why wouldn't they use them to make the Cycle faster for example? The one power we know they have is the ability to manipulate human beings and alter their thinking (as that's something we've witnessed) and then we assume that they can create the Fleshless (and I don't think that the Fleshless are a natural occurence, see above), the question is why wouldn't they create as many Fleshless as possible?
I think there are several possible explanations. First, The Fleshless can't actually be cleansed. Yes, the Cleansing kills them but if we assume that they really aren't affected as much as normal people (as many here speculate), we can take the speculation further and say that the Cleansing does kill them, but their soul isn't absorbed by the High Ones. After all, the actual human being that the Fleshless is based on is already dead. (Of course, this can all be a moot point as the High Ones don't kill the people that become Fleshless, they merely use their death). So possibly they could fear that creating too many Fleshless would cause chaos and disrupt the Cycle (and why change something that works?)
So that brings me to the second possibility, that there is more to the Cleansing that just using the Beacon. It's amazing how similar the two cycles we know are. Both the Pyreans and the Vynians (?) end in the very same fashion: a civil war that threatens to destroy the world, two parties fighting over the Beacon and then, suddenly, right as the battle culminates, the Beacon is lit. If my firsts assumption is correct and the High Ones need misery to survive, it's not that much of a stretch to assume that they also need misery to procreate, i.e. simply igniting the Beacon wouldn't be enough, it must be used while the world bleeds and destroys itself.
Therefore, while the goal of the High Ones is very simple (cause the Cleansing), the Cycle that happens before the Cleansing is not just a means to and end (that is something that causes the Cleansing), but rather a part of the Cleansing itself. The Cleansing couldn't happen without the civil war (which is caused by the High Ones carefully manipulating the leaders of both sides) not because it's the only way to ignite the Beacon, but because without the war all around, the Beacon would merely explode (doing exactly what the High Ones said it would do), but wouldn't initiate the Cleansing. Basically, to use chemical terminology, the Beacon is the catalyst of the reaction, while the misery is the main reactant.
Anyway, that's yet another wall of text from me (sorry about that), TLDR: the High Ones don't do more than they do because it would disrupt the Cycle.
I mean, everything we know about them are assumptions. We don't actually know if there are many of them or if it's just a single force of nature. We don't really have any proof of the Cleansing being a mean of procreation for them. We literally know nothing about them, apart of the fact that they like to mock the Emissaries.
I doubt that the emissaries are a natural occurence, as it doesn't look like they're common. There are certainly many people who die who could become Fleshless based on the conditions (dying while having a strong unfulfilled desire), yet there aren't many of them. And if we look at the list of the possible Fleshless (Tealor, maybe Coarek, that high priestess of the Pyreans and the rebellious general of the Pyreans, most likely a Prophet of the Pyreans as well), and if we assume that there are only the three Emissaries (Emperor, Prophet, Messiah), that two of the Emissaries are people who were already important (leader of the Holy Order, leader of the rebellion in Nehrim, leader of the Pyrean Church, leader of the Pyrean armies), so that leads me to assume that the High Ones pick someone who can serve their cause to become a Fleshless. I know that a lack of evidence isn't an evidence of nonexistence, but the lack of people showing the traits of the Fleshless (highly increased ability, single-mindedness bordering with zealotry on fulfilling their urges) is too apparent.
Unless (another crackpot theory) the people afflicted with the Red Madness are actually Fleshless whom the High Ones don't need. But that raises too many questions, mainly where are all those dead bodies that got replicated as the Red Mad Fleshless? (And another crackpot theory - could the woman's ghost from that Riverville quest be an incomplete Fleshless?)
I'll be combining now somewhat with the theory I posted here (http://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?f ... =10#p85612) and try to do a complex explanation of the High Ones, making a lot of assumptions based on little to no evidence.
The High Ones are beings that either cause or revel (or both) in misery, especially on the mental level (nightmares, depressions, those sort of things). They most likely don't have a higher goal and the Cleansing is their ultimate goal, as it's their means of procreation (just like procreation is the ultimate goal of any other living being). They may either be primitive in their nature (that is they have no culture or civilisation and the urge to procreate is the their ultimate urge), or may even posses some kind of a civilisation on a higher plane of being, but that is ultimately irrelevant since I still doubt that the Cleansing serves any other purpose (compare this to the Reapers from Mass Effect - the cycle there served a clear goal and the harvesting was just a side effect).
So if we are to assume that the High Ones operate mainly on the fulfilling of basic urges (don't be killed, satisfy hunger, procreate), it would mean that they only hold back out of fear of being harmed, because there's no other logical explanation. If they had more powers than what they showed, why wouldn't they use them to make the Cycle faster for example? The one power we know they have is the ability to manipulate human beings and alter their thinking (as that's something we've witnessed) and then we assume that they can create the Fleshless (and I don't think that the Fleshless are a natural occurence, see above), the question is why wouldn't they create as many Fleshless as possible?
I think there are several possible explanations. First, The Fleshless can't actually be cleansed. Yes, the Cleansing kills them but if we assume that they really aren't affected as much as normal people (as many here speculate), we can take the speculation further and say that the Cleansing does kill them, but their soul isn't absorbed by the High Ones. After all, the actual human being that the Fleshless is based on is already dead. (Of course, this can all be a moot point as the High Ones don't kill the people that become Fleshless, they merely use their death). So possibly they could fear that creating too many Fleshless would cause chaos and disrupt the Cycle (and why change something that works?)
So that brings me to the second possibility, that there is more to the Cleansing that just using the Beacon. It's amazing how similar the two cycles we know are. Both the Pyreans and the Vynians (?) end in the very same fashion: a civil war that threatens to destroy the world, two parties fighting over the Beacon and then, suddenly, right as the battle culminates, the Beacon is lit. If my firsts assumption is correct and the High Ones need misery to survive, it's not that much of a stretch to assume that they also need misery to procreate, i.e. simply igniting the Beacon wouldn't be enough, it must be used while the world bleeds and destroys itself.
Therefore, while the goal of the High Ones is very simple (cause the Cleansing), the Cycle that happens before the Cleansing is not just a means to and end (that is something that causes the Cleansing), but rather a part of the Cleansing itself. The Cleansing couldn't happen without the civil war (which is caused by the High Ones carefully manipulating the leaders of both sides) not because it's the only way to ignite the Beacon, but because without the war all around, the Beacon would merely explode (doing exactly what the High Ones said it would do), but wouldn't initiate the Cleansing. Basically, to use chemical terminology, the Beacon is the catalyst of the reaction, while the misery is the main reactant.
Anyway, that's yet another wall of text from me (sorry about that), TLDR: the High Ones don't do more than they do because it would disrupt the Cycle.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Casper
Posted: 03.09.2016 16:53
what if it required very specific conditions to create the fleshless, for instance if the mix isn't just so, you windup with a bog standard lost one? as those show up rarely from time to time (only becoming frequent as a cleansing approaches), and to create an emissary it requires a bit more, perhaps the final piece is supplied by the high-ones, either directly or indirectly, or by the wild magical contamination that spreads once the cycle starts near the end of the cycle (as this is what causes the red madness unless i missed something). and maybe the process isn't even under their direct and/or precise control. and how do we know there are only 3 emissaries each cycle? we know there are only 3 visible ones...
--- many edits
-remind me not to post when i'm half asleep
--- many edits
-remind me not to post when i'm half asleep
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Makesin
Posted: 04.09.2016 16:19
We don't know if there are only 3 Emissaries sadly (and we don't even know if Emissaries must be Fleshless). However, I'm fairly certain that the Lost Ones aren't created through the same process as the Fleshless, since the Lost Ones are basically resurrected corpes, while the Fleshless are (if the BG is to be believed) copies.
So if the creation of the Fleshless is natural and the Emissaries are Fleshless who were, hm, enhanced by the High Ones, then my bet is on the people suffering from the Red Madness on actually being Fleshless copies of recently deceased (but then where are their bodies?).
So if the creation of the Fleshless is natural and the Emissaries are Fleshless who were, hm, enhanced by the High Ones, then my bet is on the people suffering from the Red Madness on actually being Fleshless copies of recently deceased (but then where are their bodies?).
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Hanekem
Posted: 04.09.2016 17:56
There is one more issue with the High ones can't affect the world directly.
Starfall.
We know, at least from what we've been told, is that in each cycle a civilization rises, then collapses causing Chaos and gives place for the Immortal Magisters to take the reigns of power.
How can the High ones make sure that this first civilization collapses?
Also, consider that in this cycle, for some unexplained reason, the Veiled Woman decided to stack the deck, She even implies so in her first appearance, asking forgives even (not exactly what we;d expect from a souless being, at least per the Black Guardian's speech)
And then there is also the fact that the Black Guardian is known, if in might and legend not only to the inhabitants of Enderal, but to many, many other peoples. meaning he does have a way of interacting with the world (or maybe he had one?) unknown how limited, though.
Starfall.
We know, at least from what we've been told, is that in each cycle a civilization rises, then collapses causing Chaos and gives place for the Immortal Magisters to take the reigns of power.
How can the High ones make sure that this first civilization collapses?
Also, consider that in this cycle, for some unexplained reason, the Veiled Woman decided to stack the deck, She even implies so in her first appearance, asking forgives even (not exactly what we;d expect from a souless being, at least per the Black Guardian's speech)
And then there is also the fact that the Black Guardian is known, if in might and legend not only to the inhabitants of Enderal, but to many, many other peoples. meaning he does have a way of interacting with the world (or maybe he had one?) unknown how limited, though.
Re: [spoilers] The Fleshless - by Makesin
Posted: 04.09.2016 18:06
Hanekem wrote: Starfall.
We know, at least from what we've been told, is that in each cycle a civilization rises, then collapses causing Chaos and gives place for the Immortal Magisters to take the reigns of power.
How can the High ones make sure that this first civilization collapses?
Consider that the Cycle is first mentioned by Sarantha (the personification of Fate) in Nehrim. Sure, it is merely the Cycle of Light and Dark, that is the Cycle of Magisters, but maybe Sarantha was responsible for the whole Cycle? Or maybe she was a being on par with the High Ones, that is Fate was responsible for the rise and fall of Magisters and the High Ones are responsible for the Cleansing. That would mean that there is possibly a third entity responsible for the creation of the world and its subsequent half-destruction during the Chaos.
And then there is also the fact that the Black Guardian is known, if in might and legend not only to the inhabitants of Enderal, but to many, many other peoples. meaning he does have a way of interacting with the world (or maybe he had one?) unknown how limited, though.
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