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Topic title - The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue?
https://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?t=10727
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The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by MyLongestJourney
Posted: 29.08.2016 13:23
Well after finishing the book series "The Butcher Of Ark" I begun to wonder if everything we experience is only in the protagonist's head.
The book(s) contain the "confession" of a priest who claims became a member of a secret assassin cult which murdered for justice.
He claims his adventure started when a veiled woman visited him in his dreams and told him he was dying and had to do something etc.He leaves the village and travels to Ark.On the way he has an incident that attracts the attention of a mysterious stranger who thinks the priest shows enough promise to become a member of their assassin group of vigilantes. He joins after a painful initiation test and commits numerous murders for justice but in the end he abandons the cult and stops killing,due to moral conflict.In the last pages of book 10,another person notes that the priest just went mad and murdered innocent poor people,not rich sinners that had managed to escape both divine and man's justice.
There are similarities between the story of the mad priest and ours.
Both have traumatic childhoods with abusive fathers and weak mothers.
Both are insignificant and too powerless to bring justice on their own.
Both have weird dreams that torment them.
Both are visited by a veiled woman in their dreams who nudges them to begin their quest.
Both became awesome fighters,when before were weaklings.
Maybe our character is also crazy and the veiled woman is guilt or madness personified.Maybe nothing is real and it all happened in our heads.
The book(s) contain the "confession" of a priest who claims became a member of a secret assassin cult which murdered for justice.
He claims his adventure started when a veiled woman visited him in his dreams and told him he was dying and had to do something etc.He leaves the village and travels to Ark.On the way he has an incident that attracts the attention of a mysterious stranger who thinks the priest shows enough promise to become a member of their assassin group of vigilantes. He joins after a painful initiation test and commits numerous murders for justice but in the end he abandons the cult and stops killing,due to moral conflict.In the last pages of book 10,another person notes that the priest just went mad and murdered innocent poor people,not rich sinners that had managed to escape both divine and man's justice.
There are similarities between the story of the mad priest and ours.
Both have traumatic childhoods with abusive fathers and weak mothers.
Both are insignificant and too powerless to bring justice on their own.
Both have weird dreams that torment them.
Both are visited by a veiled woman in their dreams who nudges them to begin their quest.
Both became awesome fighters,when before were weaklings.
Maybe our character is also crazy and the veiled woman is guilt or madness personified.Maybe nothing is real and it all happened in our heads.
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by svaln
Posted: 29.08.2016 15:48
If I remember right, it is in no way confirmed that the notes in 10th book are truthful. Maybe the books actually tells us more truth than official version, maybe the notes are lies, and in such light our encounters with the Veiled Woman could actually be considered as a proof to the Butcher version of events.
But well, I actually like such explanation. It makes the endings way less depressing
But well, I actually like such explanation. It makes the endings way less depressing
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by simtam
Posted: 29.08.2016 20:02
So you think that the role of "The Butcher of Ark" in Enderal is more significant than that of "Tales of the Black Freighter" in the Watchmen comic-book?
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by ArsCortica
Posted: 29.08.2016 20:53
I wrote a rather lengthy analysis of this in the German forums. Apart from what you've already mentioned, here's the abridged version of the stuff I additionally saw in the story:
On the the player and NPCs:
- Jespar, Player Character: Guilt-ridden over being unable to save someone close to him from danger
- Calia: Has an inner demon implanted into him by a foreign force (his father, via his superstition about demons)
- Player Character: The Butcher is seem as a "tainted" child because his mother is a prostitute. The player character is seen as a "tainted" child because s/he was born from bedlock (there's still debates on whether or not the tainted child actually was the PC's little sister).
- (New) Tealor: Both want to save the world from doom, even if this comes at the cost of others
On the veiled woman:
- If the Butcher saw her, but also is delusional, then it could be deduced that the PC also must be delusional, or the Butcher must be sane.
On the Butcher being Fleshless
- The initiation ritual: The Butcher had to ritually kill himself in order to become part of the order, but someone felt just fine afterwards. Seems similar to a certain someone who drowned (PC) and a certain someone who froze to death (Tealor).
- As you've rightfully stated, the Butcher the speed at which the Butcher learns new skills mirrors that of the PC
- When the Butcher realizes that his last victim only became what he was because he previously had murdered his father (pay attention to the bear emblem), he quickly realizes that he does not remove the corrupt, but rather creates a cycle of murder and cause for murder. Qualian outright tells him that it is a cycle. Like the bigger cycle we know from the main game, where the High Ones merrily influence the foolish mortals to their own demise and misery. Pretty much the most obvious connection.
The Nectar of Sin (Unsure of the correct word for the English version of the text)
- Mirror's the PC's ability to look in the past, especially towards violent events - even if on a much smaller scale, and with other triggers
On Mitumial Dal'Joul:
Mitumial actually mirrors the character of Jael - both suffer from an abusive father who only sees weakness and corruption everywhere, and who mistreats their respective mothers. Unlike Jael, however, Mitumial realizes that the behavior of his father is not him being plainly evil, but him being weak and helpless. Mitumial originally refused to become like his father, but tragically, the latter's death at the hands of Jael seal Dal'Joul's fate and turn him into an equally sociopathic person as his father was and the Butcher is.
On the Idea that the Butcher is bonkers:
Giving the addendum in the tenth book, it seems that the Butcher is completely delusional, murdering the homeless and the sick as he imagines himself as some sort of Vigilante. However, the PC in the main game can find a weapon called "Qualian's Salvation" (again, not sure if this is the correct English name), a two-handed warhammer bearing the name of a character that, technically speaking, should not even exist outside of Jael's head. Furthermore, there's the entire thing with the veiled woman.
So, the Keeper who wrote the addendum seems to have done the Butcher quite some injustice, but as the OP has also rightfully started, there's also a fairly reasonable chance that the PC is as bonkers as Jael is, and in particular, that the entire events of Enderal are nothing more than the PC's "Light at the end of the tunnel"-scenario as s/he drowns after being thrown overboard.
The latter theory is too big to go into to much detail here, but consider that the most important NPCs (Jespar, Calia, Ryneus, Tealor, the Aged Man) all somehow mirror the PC's fears and ambitions, that the entire Fleshless/High Ones plot could just be a metaphor for the PC seeking absolution in his last dying breaths (or the lack thereof), and that the Veiled Lady only shows the PC "What could have been".
On the the player and NPCs:
- Jespar, Player Character: Guilt-ridden over being unable to save someone close to him from danger
- Calia: Has an inner demon implanted into him by a foreign force (his father, via his superstition about demons)
- Player Character: The Butcher is seem as a "tainted" child because his mother is a prostitute. The player character is seen as a "tainted" child because s/he was born from bedlock (there's still debates on whether or not the tainted child actually was the PC's little sister).
- (New) Tealor: Both want to save the world from doom, even if this comes at the cost of others
On the veiled woman:
- If the Butcher saw her, but also is delusional, then it could be deduced that the PC also must be delusional, or the Butcher must be sane.
On the Butcher being Fleshless
- The initiation ritual: The Butcher had to ritually kill himself in order to become part of the order, but someone felt just fine afterwards. Seems similar to a certain someone who drowned (PC) and a certain someone who froze to death (Tealor).
- As you've rightfully stated, the Butcher the speed at which the Butcher learns new skills mirrors that of the PC
- When the Butcher realizes that his last victim only became what he was because he previously had murdered his father (pay attention to the bear emblem), he quickly realizes that he does not remove the corrupt, but rather creates a cycle of murder and cause for murder. Qualian outright tells him that it is a cycle. Like the bigger cycle we know from the main game, where the High Ones merrily influence the foolish mortals to their own demise and misery. Pretty much the most obvious connection.
The Nectar of Sin (Unsure of the correct word for the English version of the text)
- Mirror's the PC's ability to look in the past, especially towards violent events - even if on a much smaller scale, and with other triggers
On Mitumial Dal'Joul:
Mitumial actually mirrors the character of Jael - both suffer from an abusive father who only sees weakness and corruption everywhere, and who mistreats their respective mothers. Unlike Jael, however, Mitumial realizes that the behavior of his father is not him being plainly evil, but him being weak and helpless. Mitumial originally refused to become like his father, but tragically, the latter's death at the hands of Jael seal Dal'Joul's fate and turn him into an equally sociopathic person as his father was and the Butcher is.
On the Idea that the Butcher is bonkers:
Giving the addendum in the tenth book, it seems that the Butcher is completely delusional, murdering the homeless and the sick as he imagines himself as some sort of Vigilante. However, the PC in the main game can find a weapon called "Qualian's Salvation" (again, not sure if this is the correct English name), a two-handed warhammer bearing the name of a character that, technically speaking, should not even exist outside of Jael's head. Furthermore, there's the entire thing with the veiled woman.
So, the Keeper who wrote the addendum seems to have done the Butcher quite some injustice, but as the OP has also rightfully started, there's also a fairly reasonable chance that the PC is as bonkers as Jael is, and in particular, that the entire events of Enderal are nothing more than the PC's "Light at the end of the tunnel"-scenario as s/he drowns after being thrown overboard.
The latter theory is too big to go into to much detail here, but consider that the most important NPCs (Jespar, Calia, Ryneus, Tealor, the Aged Man) all somehow mirror the PC's fears and ambitions, that the entire Fleshless/High Ones plot could just be a metaphor for the PC seeking absolution in his last dying breaths (or the lack thereof), and that the Veiled Lady only shows the PC "What could have been".
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by MyLongestJourney
Posted: 29.08.2016 22:36
. However, the PC in the main game can find a weapon called "Qualian's Salvation" (again, not sure if this is the correct English name), a two-handed war-hammer bearing the name of a character that, technically speaking, should not even exist outside of Jael's head. Furthermore, there's the entire thing with the veiled woman.
The veiled woman just might be a personification of madness.Or that click that happens in a traumatized person heads that starts the spiral into total madness.
So you think that the role of "The Butcher of Ark" in Enderal is more significant than that of "Tales of the Black Freighter" in the Watchmen comic-book?
Edit:So I come to this conclusion:If Jael was indeed a paranoid murderer then our protagonist is also paranoid.He/she probably heard of the story of the Butcher in the past and incorporated it as a "book" in the fictional world his/her mind created.
If what Jael wrote is true and he was simply slandered by the order (but why by the order?) or Black Libra (understandable) then his story is simply an allegory of the cycle of misery human hatred and violence creates.
The most significant question the game poses to us is if humanity can break that cycle.
In the first ending where we sacrifice ourselves to give people another chance,we trust that the old humanity will do it,learning by the past mistakes.
In the second ending where we flee to the starts letting the old humanity perish we face the problem of creating a new humanity that will not fall again to cycle of violence.
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by simtam
Posted: 30.08.2016 03:39
It's a story within a story; a fictional book that exist within the fictional universe, that we occasionally see fragments of, telling a story which is theorized to mirror that of certain character(s) in the main story.
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by ArsCortica
Posted: 30.08.2016 14:43
MyLongestJourney wrote:About the hammer:Well somebody maybe read the book and got inspired by it to name the hammer?Maybe is is just a coincidence?Maybe there is more than one person named Qualian?.Furthermore there is the matter of the victims.Either the reviewer was lying about the identity of the victims slandering Jael as a part of a coverup or he was not.If he was not then delusional Jael only murdered innocent poor victims in the Undercity and was truly a paranoid schizophrenic murderer.. However, the PC in the main game can find a weapon called "Qualian's Salvation" (again, not sure if this is the correct English name), a two-handed war-hammer bearing the name of a character that, technically speaking, should not even exist outside of Jael's head. Furthermore, there's the entire thing with the veiled woman.
The veiled woman just might be a personification of madness.Or that click that happens in a traumatized person heads that starts the spiral into total madness.
Regarding Qualian's Salvation - if we were talking about the everyday world, sure, it might very well be that it's based on someone by the same name, or that somebody just read the books and named the warhammer after the character. However, we're talking about a specific game narrative here - what are the chances the writer choose that specific name for this specific weapon just to create a coincidence?
Regarding the victims - it's the Undercity. I'm fairly certain there's more than enough people that would merrily cut up people down there, not just Jael.
Regarding the veiled woman - she may very well be the personification of madness, but it's odd that two different people have an identical image of her.
HOWEVER: I do not actually want to deny that Jael and the player characters are insane. Again, this all may just be in the PC's head as s/he is drowning.
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by MyLongestJourney
Posted: 30.08.2016 22:07
- she may very well be the personification of madness, but it's odd that two different people have an identical image of her.
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by Casper
Posted: 31.08.2016 22:52
a few things here, just mind candy...
assuming the main character's dreams aren't being completely influenced by the high-ones (i actually think they're altering the dreams to warp a vital moment in the character's development in an attempt to break him/her), s/he is suffering from a traumatic childhood drama, and likely survivor's guilt. i have to wonder if the main character is actually getting a clearer picture of this past trauma, or if s/he is slipping deeper into psychosis and the dreams are a part of this. given the events in the game (assuming most of this isn't a delusional episode) i would say that the character is being exposed to more trauma, worsting his/her mental condition. though such things can go either way (as far as i know, i'm not a medical professional so don't quote me), new trauma can open old wounds, causing one to revisit the event or it can cause the individual to warp events within their head.
(note: i actually think the later is wrong, as i actually think the high-ones are altering the mc's dreams)
as for the butcher, i don't actually think he is the mc, nor are the books related to the player character directly... however i think it is likely that he was supposed to become this cycle's profit, and the veiled women interfered to force him from the position so the mc could assume the role instead.
(note: i haven't found all the butcher books, so i don't have the complete picture.)
if this whole story is a figment of the main character's fractured mind or a vision within the last few moments of the character's life before drowning... i think the game and the ending would have been more positive, especially the endings or they would have been far more unpleasant.
(but as i said earlier i'm not a head shrink, this is just an unprofessional opinion)
assuming the main character's dreams aren't being completely influenced by the high-ones (i actually think they're altering the dreams to warp a vital moment in the character's development in an attempt to break him/her), s/he is suffering from a traumatic childhood drama, and likely survivor's guilt. i have to wonder if the main character is actually getting a clearer picture of this past trauma, or if s/he is slipping deeper into psychosis and the dreams are a part of this. given the events in the game (assuming most of this isn't a delusional episode) i would say that the character is being exposed to more trauma, worsting his/her mental condition. though such things can go either way (as far as i know, i'm not a medical professional so don't quote me), new trauma can open old wounds, causing one to revisit the event or it can cause the individual to warp events within their head.
(note: i actually think the later is wrong, as i actually think the high-ones are altering the mc's dreams)
as for the butcher, i don't actually think he is the mc, nor are the books related to the player character directly... however i think it is likely that he was supposed to become this cycle's profit, and the veiled women interfered to force him from the position so the mc could assume the role instead.
(note: i haven't found all the butcher books, so i don't have the complete picture.)
if this whole story is a figment of the main character's fractured mind or a vision within the last few moments of the character's life before drowning... i think the game and the ending would have been more positive, especially the endings or they would have been far more unpleasant.
(but as i said earlier i'm not a head shrink, this is just an unprofessional opinion)
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by Makesin
Posted: 31.08.2016 23:15
I'll have to replay Enderal to get a clearer look at some (a lot of) the foreshadowing, but if I remember clearly, in the beginning, the main characters tells Sirius that they are having a recuring nightmare (i.e. the dream that starts the game, with a father accusing his child of murdering the entire family and trying to devour as much flesh as he can while burning). And yet it is the only time we see this dream, because all the other dreams are different (the second dream has the whole family dining, the third dream has the father listening to himself arguing with his pregnant wife, the fourth dream showing either four graves or the love interest based on the ending).
It would be strange if recuring nightmares suddenly changed so dramatically on their own, especially when, in my opinion, the game story, while dramatic, doesn't seem to be something so terrible as to worsen the condition of someone who witnessed his whole family being burnt at stake. So I'd personally would also sign to the High Ones Altering the Dreams theory.
As for the Butcher, wasn't it mentioned that that companion of his also saw the Veiled Woman?
It would be strange if recuring nightmares suddenly changed so dramatically on their own, especially when, in my opinion, the game story, while dramatic, doesn't seem to be something so terrible as to worsen the condition of someone who witnessed his whole family being burnt at stake. So I'd personally would also sign to the High Ones Altering the Dreams theory.
As for the Butcher, wasn't it mentioned that that companion of his also saw the Veiled Woman?
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by MyLongestJourney
Posted: 01.09.2016 00:04
Makesin wrote:I
As for the Butcher, wasn't it mentioned that that companion of his also saw the Veiled Woman?
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by Makesin
Posted: 01.09.2016 00:10
MyLongestJourney wrote: You assume that the book The Butcher of Ark exists in the real world.If it is part of the fictional world in MCs paranoid mind,it is not strange at all that his companion saw the woman.
Basically said, the story presents us with things which we know are true (from Nehrim), yet which the MC couldn't have known. Namely the character of Constantine Firespark (who is a mage of Narathzul's Order in both games, although he could have gone to Ostian, so the MC could know about this one), the character of Tealor Arantheal (how could the MC know about his imprisonment?) and mainly, the fact that Narathzul is the son of Tealor and Irlanda (which the MC simply can't know, since nobody apart of a chosen few characters from Nehrim knows this). So unless the hallucination accidentaly created things that are true, I just don't buy into it.
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by Casper
Posted: 01.09.2016 00:29
Makesin wrote:Yeah, that could be an explanation, but then I have a problem with the theory that the whole game is just the MC's hallucination.MyLongestJourney wrote: You assume that the book The Butcher of Ark exists in the real world.If it is part of the fictional world in MCs paranoid mind,it is not strange at all that his companion saw the woman.
Basically said, the story presents us with things which we know are true (from Nehrim), yet which the MC couldn't have known. Namely the character of Constantine Firespark (who is a mage of Narathzul's Order in both games, although he could have gone to Ostian, so the MC could know about this one), the character of Tealor Arantheal (how could the MC know about his imprisonment?) and mainly, the fact that Narathzul is the son of Tealor and Irlanda (which the MC simply can't know, since nobody apart of a chosen few characters from Nehrim knows this). So unless the hallucination accidentaly created things that are true, I just don't buy into it.
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by MyLongestJourney
Posted: 01.09.2016 14:45
Makesin wrote:Yeah, that could be an explanation, but then I have a problem with the theory that the whole game is just the MC's hallucination.MyLongestJourney wrote: You assume that the book The Butcher of Ark exists in the real world.If it is part of the fictional world in MCs paranoid mind,it is not strange at all that his companion saw the woman.
Basically said, the story presents us with things which we know are true (from Nehrim), yet which the MC couldn't have known. Namely the character of Constantine Firespark (who is a mage of Narathzul's Order in both games, although he could have gone to Ostian, so the MC could know about this one), the character of Tealor Arantheal (how could the MC know about his imprisonment?) and mainly, the fact that Narathzul is the son of Tealor and Irlanda (which the MC simply can't know, since nobody apart of a chosen few characters from Nehrim knows this). So unless the hallucination accidentaly created things that are true, I just don't buy into it.
Personally I think it would suck if the imaginary world theory was true.Yes the main story of Enderal left me slightly traumatized (Calia...noooooooo!) but I would be annoyed if SureAI broke the news that nothing we experienced was real.
Re: The Butcher Of Ark-Does it gives us a clue? - by Makesin
Posted: 02.09.2016 01:02
MyLongestJourney wrote:Allright this is the most valid counter-argument against the "It is all in the MCs paranoid mind" theory so far.Still it is not impossible he/she had knowledge of that info.People do talk.
Personally I think it would suck if the imaginary world theory was true.Yes the main story of Enderal left me slightly traumatized (Calia...noooooooo!) but I would be annoyed if SureAI broke the news that nothing we experienced was real.
And yeah, I personally dislike these theories claiming that the whole story is a hallucination (like that theory that Harry Potter is merely a mental institute patient...), but I get why some people get fascinated with them.
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