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Topic title - Aged man origins? [SPOILERS]

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Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by VelinquentT

Posted: 26.08.2016 07:39

I skip the Nehrim and have a question: is it possible that an aged man is a prophet of one of the previous cycles? It seems that he, as a flesless, fled to the Star City with his lover,

[+]: just as our protagonist does

, but because of his immortality, dude just had to put her in the lifesupport barrel.

[+]: In theory, the same thing will happen in one of the ending, doesn't it? To me it seems like another cycle.

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by ArsCortica

Posted: 27.08.2016 13:50

I am not sure sure whether or not the Old Man also fled to the Star City like the protagonist does, but consider the following:

[+]: There is a fairly credible theory that all events in the game are not actually real but are just the "end at the light of the tunnel" scenario of the protagonist as s/he drowns after being thrown overboard the ship in the intro. A poster on the German section of the forum has compiled a whole boatload of rather intriguing hints pointing at this, and without wanting to translate the entire post, the basic idea behind is that virtually all characters you meet in the game are reflections of the protagonist as he tries to cope with his past - Calia as the "tainted" child that brought ruin to her family, Jespar as the traitor who left those whom he loved to die and is afraid to take responsibility for everything, Tealor as the protagonist's desperate wish to save his family, etc.

[+]: The whole "Fleshless" thing hence would mean that you are not literally are a meat puppet for the Old Ones, but rather that the entire struggle against the Old Ones is just a metaphor for the protagonist's struggle to find absolution and to take responsibility for his/her actions - or inaction.

[+]: If you follow this train of thought, the Old Men actually is how the protagonist imagines his future self within his death-dream if he continues to run away from his guilt (Star City Ending) rather than to take responsibility for his/her (in)action (Sacrifice Ending).

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by Ampnode

Posted: 30.08.2016 18:41

While it may be the PC's made up world in his head right before he dies while being thrown into the ocean, or that Jespar's, Tealor's, and Calia's behaviours could be coincidental and the world may be real, we can't really tell for sure. What's intriguing is that both scenarios fit perfectly in a way that either one could be true. I guess it's simply the player's contemplation on what they think it may be? Many well written stories tend to do this. Keeping the reader(or player) guessing.

Personally, I feel as though the "end at the light of the tunnel" scenario, as @ArsCortica mentioned, could very well be the more plausible theory. Albeit the theory I don't like, because I find these types of stories heart wrenching, it does seem likely true.

Some things to look at, if the world and events happening are real and that The Aged Man is part of a cycle, are:(Major Spoilers)

[+]: - The Veiled Woman says Calia is a special one. The Aged Man's wife may not have gone through the same thing as Calia did, which we can kind of infer she may be immortal, like we are, because of the Black Stone; hence why The Veiled Woman claims she's special. That makes two immortal beings capable of starting from scratch and making sure humanity doesn't go through its same mistakes. This could be why The Veiled Woman has helped so greatly in this cycle, because it's potentially 'the one' to stop it all. Also, Jespar may be a fleshless one as well because of being revived from death at one point. Either way, and whoever you decide, you're being put with someone who's 'potentially' immortal.
- You can sense that The Aged Man feels some sort of sympathy for the PC. You can feel that he's reluctant to help, but decides to do so anyway because he feels like he owes it to humanity after failing. As though he's been through it before and feels like there's no hope I guess? His notes you can read in his manor indicate that he may have been through it before, which they also indicate he's in contact with a higher power(The Veiled Woman perhaps?).
- The Black Guardian claims he's never seen a prophet from the cycles appear in front of him, so you can infer that The Aged Man was possibly given the choice before The Black Guardian was created. But... we don't know if The Black Guardian knows about The Aged Man or not. Being as The Black Guardian has been around for a time that we apparently can't imagine, it makes The Aged Man part of a cycle theory less likely. But again, The Aged Man may have been a part of a cycle a very long time ago.

A Reddit post with some more interesting thoughts(Spoilers inside): https://reddit.com/r/enderal/comments/5 ... g_spoilers

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by badgesareus

Posted: 31.08.2016 06:08

When you reach Riverville near the start of the game and first talk to the alchemist,Tarhutie Leklerk, she says :
"Horrible bad vibrations, Something peculiar surrounds you. Your aura, it is indigo blue, the color of the dying." Hmmm.

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by Makesin

Posted: 31.08.2016 22:28

One problem I have with the whole "end at the light of the tunnel" hallucination theory is that there are a few events happening in the game which we know are true from Nehrim, yet the player character couldn't know about them.

For starters, there's Constantine Firespark, a mage of Narathzul's Order from Nehrim, who obviously appears in Enderal, thus he's not a character made up by a dying mind. Unless he appeared in Ostian in Nehrim (I honestly don't remember the Southrealm part of Nehrim very well), I doubt a young fugitive from Ostian could know about him.

But more importantly, we have Tealor Arantheal, and not only does the Prophet witness him talk about his imprisonment by Narathzul (again, where would the Prophet gain this information?), but more importantly, he witnesses a scene between Tealor and Irlanda talking about Narathzul being their son. This is again something we know is true from Nehrim, and most definitely something the Prophet couldn't know beforehand. After all, only Tealor, Irlanda (and possibly other gods), Arkt, Narathzul and the Nehrim PC ever knew and I doubt either of them would tell some random refugee from Ostian.

As such, unless the Prophet's mind could create in their mind a scenario which would acidentaly show true information (that is, Prophet's mind made up the fact that Tealor and Irlanda had a son without know it actually is the truth), I'll believe that the story truly happened.

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by Casper

Posted: 31.08.2016 23:03

Makesin wrote:
One problem I have with the whole "end at the light of the tunnel" hallucination theory is that there are a few events happening in the game which we know are true from Nehrim, yet the player character couldn't know about them.

For starters, there's Constantine Firespark, a mage of Narathzul's Order from Nehrim, who obviously appears in Enderal, thus he's not a character made up by a dying mind. Unless he appeared in Ostian in Nehrim (I honestly don't remember the Southrealm part of Nehrim very well), I doubt a young fugitive from Ostian could know about him.

But more importantly, we have Tealor Arantheal, and not only does the Prophet witness him talk about his imprisonment by Narathzul (again, where would the Prophet gain this information?), but more importantly, he witnesses a scene between Tealor and Irlanda talking about Narathzul being their son. This is again something we know is true from Nehrim, and most definitely something the Prophet couldn't know beforehand. After all, only Tealor, Irlanda (and possibly other gods), Arkt, Narathzul and the Nehrim PC ever knew and I doubt either of them would tell some random refugee from Ostian.

As such, unless the Prophet's mind could create in their mind a scenario which would acidentaly show true information (that is, Prophet's mind made up the fact that Tealor and Irlanda had a son without know it actually is the truth), I'll believe that the story truly happened.

i happen to agree with these points, and was thinking something similar.

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by ArsCortica

Posted: 01.09.2016 12:28

Makesin wrote:
One problem I have with the whole "end at the light of the tunnel" hallucination theory is that there are a few events happening in the game which we know are true from Nehrim, yet the player character couldn't know about them.

For starters, there's Constantine Firespark, a mage of Narathzul's Order from Nehrim, who obviously appears in Enderal, thus he's not a character made up by a dying mind. Unless he appeared in Ostian in Nehrim (I honestly don't remember the Southrealm part of Nehrim very well), I doubt a young fugitive from Ostian could know about him.

But more importantly, we have Tealor Arantheal, and not only does the Prophet witness him talk about his imprisonment by Narathzul (again, where would the Prophet gain this information?), but more importantly, he witnesses a scene between Tealor and Irlanda talking about Narathzul being their son. This is again something we know is true from Nehrim, and most definitely something the Prophet couldn't know beforehand. After all, only Tealor, Irlanda (and possibly other gods), Arkt, Narathzul and the Nehrim PC ever knew and I doubt either of them would tell some random refugee from Ostian.

As such, unless the Prophet's mind could create in their mind a scenario which would acidentaly show true information (that is, Prophet's mind made up the fact that Tealor and Irlanda had a son without know it actually is the truth), I'll believe that the story truly happened.

I see your point, but bear in mind that the "Light at the End of the Tunnel Scenario" does not imply that everything the protagonist seems is completely fictional. The boat ride likely is real, as are the events of Nehrim (otherwise the protagonist's parents would never have been murdered by religious fanatics). With Narathzul's uprising being a highly popular movement, it's quite possible that the protagonist would know Constantine Firespark, who after all was Narathzul's right-hand man of sorts.

That Tealor Arantheal is Narathzul's father likely also would be public knowledge. The knowledge about his imprisonment and the family issues with Irlanda admittedly are a harder nut to crack - if memory serves, Narathzul died before he could have told anyone about his mommy issues, so the only way the protagonist of Enderal could know about this would be if the protagonist from Nehrim spread the news wide and far - which he may have done (to explain Narathzul's death), or not have done (out of personal respect to Narathzul).

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by badgesareus

Posted: 07.09.2016 00:09

(1) In Nehrim, FATE was personified. I think in Enderal, TIME is personified as the Aged Man. He tells us, in part "I'm an observer, a fleshless eye", I observe the cycle, amongst other things. Timelessness is not that much of a feat, you will find that out yourself, soon enough." Also, one interesting item, in his study on the mantle there is a clock. When you point at it, you get the (E) interact icon but nothing happens, at least not for me. But have you seen a clock anywhere else in Enderal? (It seems his name is Gajus.)

(2) Perhaps the Veiled Woman the personified Mother Nature and is also the Aged Man's Woman in the Water: "Why did you wake me, are we there yet? I still believe in our dream." Perhaps she must be awakened each time there is a cleansing to restart life & mankind, and her dream is that some day the cleansings will end and life will be permanent. At the entrance to the Aged Man's Mansion, there is a statue that could be the veiled woman.

staircase at Aged Man mansion

If you look closely in the greenery at the base, there is a small face grimacing, perhaps that of a child being born (mankind renewed)

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by MyLongestJourney

Posted: 07.09.2016 17:13

Yeah,I do not think your theory has merit.The most telling clue is the Aged Man's letter to his friend.The Aged man has both a name and a friend and talks about his pride being his downfall.Time has neither friends or feelings/personal flaws.And why would he heep the Veiled woman in stasis?Jespar informs you that Quranian mentalists (mortals) have found a way to slow the passage of time by being in a deep dream state.So the woman in the vat is a mortal.She also calls Gajus (the aged man) her love.A love romance between Time and Nature?Seems far fetched.Plus her mention of their "dream" fits well with the Star City alternative ending where you the fleshless prophet flee to the Star City in an effort to built a better humanity.

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by badgesareus

Posted: 07.09.2016 21:06

Seems far fetched

Unlike the story itself?

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by theslowarrow

Posted: 08.09.2016 14:45

I'm lost. How could this is all be PC's imagination?
The veiled woman caused the explosion on ship which resulted in PC being exposed and thrown out of ship. If the whole post-intro thing is just some fabrication in PC's mind how do you explain veiled woman's role in this? She just did that so you'd have some crazy dream before you drown?

I'm not totally convinced by aged man being time incarnation theory either. From his letter as well as woman in water's words it's clear that he's more than just an observer, but has some agenda/plan to himself but failed because his 'pride'. I haven't played the Nehrim game but I think he's somehow connected to the events in it(in his letter he said something about him originally thinking what happened in Nehrim an upturning event but had eventually lost hope afterwards). Now I'm suspecting he is actually

[+]: Narathzul Arentheal and the woman in water being Zelara

. But again I havent played Nehrim so I could be wrong. Here are some clues/questions about him I've gather so far:

+if you read the capitalized words in the books names when solving the trap door puzzle in his house you get "pride was my fall", same sentence appeared in his letter to his anonymous friend, who has likely made an appearence in previous game Nehrim?
+he thinks what happened in Nehrim 'so promising' but lost his hope afterwards because 'now everything is back at its old place'
+the woman in water is likely his lover but put to deep sleep for her mortality, she asked 'are we there yet?' when awaken by PC and said she 'still believe in our dream'. but what is their dream?
+the mannequins in ground floor are apparently refering to the black stone quests which would happen later in game, which means he can see things in future(or past in previous cycle)
+time on the clock on hearth is 7:57 or 11:39, could this mean something?
+the name Gajus(or Gaius) is derived from Latin word gaudere, which means 'to rejoice'

The idea of him being a prophet from previous cycle would seem very appealing. But it still leaves some questions unaccounted for, such as how the word of dead came in his possession, and why he didn't stop the cycle when he clearly can do something about it(unless the cycle is unstoppable).

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by Glycerin

Posted: 08.09.2016 17:10

I don't recall his exact words, but the Black Guardian mentions at some point that he can somehow observe the events in the world. The Aged Man in turn calls himself a "fleshless eye", so I wondered if there might be a connection. The Aged Man, as the Guardian himself, seems to be much older than the current cycle, or at least I got the impression, he had seen more than one Cycle.
That still doesn't explain, who the Aged Man is or who he is writing to (I doubt he writes letters to an ancient machine somewhere far underground). But if he serves the Black Guardian (who is, by all accounts, some sort of devil figure), this could be why he gives us the Word of the Dead and why he had it in his possession in the first place.

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by MyLongestJourney

Posted: 08.09.2016 17:45

theslowarrow wrote:
I'm lost. How could this is all be PC's imagination?
The veiled woman caused the explosion on ship which resulted in PC being exposed and thrown out of ship. If the whole post-intro thing is just some fabrication in PC's mind how do you explain veiled woman's role in this? She just did that so you'd have some crazy dream before you drown?

I'm not totally convinced by aged man being time incarnation theory either. From his letter as well as woman in water's words it's clear that he's more than just an observer, but has some agenda/plan to himself but failed because his 'pride'. I haven't played the Nehrim game but I think he's somehow connected to the events in it(in his letter he said something about him originally thinking what happened in Nehrim an upturning event but had eventually lost hope afterwards). Now I'm suspecting he is actually
[+]
Narathzul Arentheal and the woman in water being Zelara
.

Both are dead by Nehrim's end

[+]: .Zelara was murdered by Narathzul.He himself committed suicide.

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by theslowarrow

Posted: 08.09.2016 18:17

MyLongestJourney wrote:
Both are dead by Nehrim's end
[+]
.Zelara was murdered by Narathzul.He himself committed suicide.

Right. And I forgot that aged man had existed for at least centuries according to folk tale, so it couldn't be Narathzul because back then he was still imprisoned.

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by badgesareus

Posted: 08.09.2016 19:59

I've figured it out! The Aged Man has been observing the entire history of the cycles in Vyn, so it must be -- Nicolas Samuel !

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by MyLongestJourney

Posted: 09.09.2016 14:35

badgesareus wrote:
I've figured it out! The Aged Man has been observing the entire history of the cycles in Vyn, so it must be -- Nicolas Samuel !

Nikolas Samuel is keeping a woman in stasis ?

Somebody call the health department asap!

Okay your theory explains everything about the Aged Man expect the woman in the vat.

I have another theory on the origins of the Aged Man.It is you,the prophet visiting Vyn from the future in a certain eventualities setting where you are male and picked Calia instead of Jespar.That explains the friend from Nehrim,the statues who show scenes from your quests for the Black Stones and the one who shows the Black Guardian (the legless one),the knowledge of the cycle etc.

But how did you manage to travel back in time?

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by Principe Alessandro

Posted: 12.09.2016 19:39

What do you think about the fact that the friend mentioned in his letter could be the Shadow God? Or could be Arkt?

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by ninjamelody

Posted: 16.09.2016 20:28

I would say he is one of the prophets from the past cycles who is also fleshless, who has great magic, probably illusion and manipulating objects and minds (Psionics and mentalism) with agenda to help the current prophet about the key knowledge of the cycle. He has been here so long that he practices his magic so much. He survived because he fled the cycle with his lover but his love is not immortal so he has to do his best to "preserve" her until that day comes, when someone figured out the way to "win" the cycle and she could survive again.

The Aged Man is restricted under some conditions that he cannot help the protagonist directly because it could stimulate pride on those who are on the protagonist's side and become an even worse catalyst for the cycle.

I observed from:

[+]: - Pride was my fall hints in his manor.
- He knows the protagonist's intention on visiting him and let them live afterwords. If it would have been someone else with another agenda they will be dead. (Tealor Arantheal and bard's song said it)
- His possession of the Word of the Dead
- His ability to make his house disappear and form his own physical appearance as a servant

Re: Aged man origins? [SPOILERS] - by Smertin

Posted: 06.11.2016 16:51

Isn't the Veiled Woman based a little bit on Gaia helping Zeus motif?

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