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Topic title - How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS]
https://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?t=10356
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How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by UngodlyGod
Posted: 22.08.2016 12:50
In Enderal, it is stated that each cycle will follow a certain path before ending with the Cleansing.
[1] Life begins anew
[2] Evolution begets humanity
[3] A natural disaster
[4] A few people become Gods (Light-born, Sun-priests)
[5] The Gods are overthrown
[6] The Cleansing
In Nehrim however, there's a cycle of Light and Dark masterminded by fate itself, Sarantha.
She is fate personified, and she controls the fate of all mortals, even the Light-born. Doesn't that mean that she's more powerful than the High Ones, who can only manipulate people through visions and dreams?
How does the existence of Sarantha, the Heart of The World, The Shadow World, and her cycle of Light and Dark fit in any of this? I'm confused as hell.
[1] Life begins anew
[2] Evolution begets humanity
[3] A natural disaster
[4] A few people become Gods (Light-born, Sun-priests)
[5] The Gods are overthrown
[6] The Cleansing
In Nehrim however, there's a cycle of Light and Dark masterminded by fate itself, Sarantha.
She is fate personified, and she controls the fate of all mortals, even the Light-born. Doesn't that mean that she's more powerful than the High Ones, who can only manipulate people through visions and dreams?
How does the existence of Sarantha, the Heart of The World, The Shadow World, and her cycle of Light and Dark fit in any of this? I'm confused as hell.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Stampfer
Posted: 22.08.2016 14:05
I look at this in a rather profane way. Each of these games tell their own story. A greater theme (in regards to Enderal everything revolves around the fragility of the psyche) is just embedded in a fantasy setting. They share the same universe but I believe the theme was deemed more important than logical consistency between Enderal and Nehrim.
Still, it doesn't hurt (and may be fun in itself) to make theories how all this could be connected.
Still, it doesn't hurt (and may be fun in itself) to make theories how all this could be connected.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Glycerin
Posted: 22.08.2016 15:56
I played Nehrim quite a long time ago, so I may be wrong about this, but didn't we kill Sarantha? With Fate out of the way, there would be much fewer logical problems.
But then again we have the Veiled Woman in Enderal, who plays fate on more than one occasion. I don't know if she really is a representation of fate or something else entirely, but maybe Sarantha as a person wasn't all that important and it is more about the concept, which still persists after her death, just in another form. That would also mean you never actually freed yourself from fate, as Nehrim's ending suggested. That also fits in nicely with the question you are presented at Enderal's intro "What distinguishes a free man from a slave?" if the answer is that you can never truly escape your fate. Or I am just overanalyzing things here, I guess I better stop now
But then again we have the Veiled Woman in Enderal, who plays fate on more than one occasion. I don't know if she really is a representation of fate or something else entirely, but maybe Sarantha as a person wasn't all that important and it is more about the concept, which still persists after her death, just in another form. That would also mean you never actually freed yourself from fate, as Nehrim's ending suggested. That also fits in nicely with the question you are presented at Enderal's intro "What distinguishes a free man from a slave?" if the answer is that you can never truly escape your fate. Or I am just overanalyzing things here, I guess I better stop now
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by UngodlyGod
Posted: 22.08.2016 17:12
@Stampfer
Yeah, it'll be fun trying to connect the dots, just like the Soulsborne series.
@Glycerin
Yeah, we did kill Sarantha, but I'm talking about the relevance of the Light-born Shadow-god Cycle to Enderal's Cleansing Cycle.
In Nehrim, if I'm not mistaken, the Light-born's existence created an imbalance in the world, and fate decreed that they have to be taken down by the Shadow-gods. Once the Light-born are dead, now it's the Shadow-gods' existence creates an imbalance in the world, so now Fate sends her envoys to kill the Shadow-gods until they're dead.
So I assume that after the Shadow-gods are dead, new Light-born would rise and the cycle repeats itself, maybe? Since Nehrim hinted that this cylce had been continuing for ages, until we kill Sarantha.
The absence of the false gods is necessary for The Cleansing to happen; so by turning the existence of the false gods into a cycle, Sarantha made sure that The Cleansing will never happen, since new false gods will forever replace the old ones, creating a perpetual presence of false gods.
But in Nehrim, we killed her and ended her little cycle, so The Cleansing's Cycle is now able to progress naturally.
If this speculation is somewhat correct; since Sarantha is against The Cleansing, and The Veiled Woman too is against The Cleansing, they could very well be the same person. Note that The Veiled Woman talked about "the probabilities are against you" on board Rocio's ship. Though why she didn't bring us to the Machine earlier is still a big question.
Yeah, it'll be fun trying to connect the dots, just like the Soulsborne series.
@Glycerin
Yeah, we did kill Sarantha, but I'm talking about the relevance of the Light-born Shadow-god Cycle to Enderal's Cleansing Cycle.
In Nehrim, if I'm not mistaken, the Light-born's existence created an imbalance in the world, and fate decreed that they have to be taken down by the Shadow-gods. Once the Light-born are dead, now it's the Shadow-gods' existence creates an imbalance in the world, so now Fate sends her envoys to kill the Shadow-gods until they're dead.
So I assume that after the Shadow-gods are dead, new Light-born would rise and the cycle repeats itself, maybe? Since Nehrim hinted that this cylce had been continuing for ages, until we kill Sarantha.
====================[SPECULATION]====================
Maybe Sarantha created her Light-Dark cycle to indefinitely delay the High Ones' cycle? She resides in the Shadow World, a place containing the ruins of worlds ruined by imbalance, as well as some ghosts. These ruins are probably the ruins of past civilizations which were destroyed by The Cleansing and the ghosts there are probably those who died but weren't absorbed. The imbalance mentioned is probably the requirements for The Cleansing to happen.The absence of the false gods is necessary for The Cleansing to happen; so by turning the existence of the false gods into a cycle, Sarantha made sure that The Cleansing will never happen, since new false gods will forever replace the old ones, creating a perpetual presence of false gods.
But in Nehrim, we killed her and ended her little cycle, so The Cleansing's Cycle is now able to progress naturally.
If this speculation is somewhat correct; since Sarantha is against The Cleansing, and The Veiled Woman too is against The Cleansing, they could very well be the same person. Note that The Veiled Woman talked about "the probabilities are against you" on board Rocio's ship. Though why she didn't bring us to the Machine earlier is still a big question.
=================[SPECULATION ENDS]=================
Although this theory doesn't explain why Sarantha is such a b*tch.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by badgesareus
Posted: 22.08.2016 20:17
Better lay off the peaceweed!
I just had a couple of random thoughts after reading this.
(1) There are several mentions in Enderal of the death of the false gods, but I don't recall any mentions of the shadow god; I thought that odd.
(2) I wonder why, in the tunnels below Ark near the end, there was that vision of Teleor (sorry spelled it wrong I'm sure) and his false-god lover (what was her name, Iranda or something?).
(3) Could it be that Sarantha was also a High One and they had some falling out so she decided to mess with them?
(4) It's been a long time since I played Nehrim, but remember you had to destroy some crucial book in the firey depths of the world? Maybe that had some greater significance beyond Nehrim.
I just had a couple of random thoughts after reading this.
(1) There are several mentions in Enderal of the death of the false gods, but I don't recall any mentions of the shadow god; I thought that odd.
(2) I wonder why, in the tunnels below Ark near the end, there was that vision of Teleor (sorry spelled it wrong I'm sure) and his false-god lover (what was her name, Iranda or something?).
(3) Could it be that Sarantha was also a High One and they had some falling out so she decided to mess with them?
(4) It's been a long time since I played Nehrim, but remember you had to destroy some crucial book in the firey depths of the world? Maybe that had some greater significance beyond Nehrim.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by UngodlyGod
Posted: 23.08.2016 01:06
badgesareus wrote:Better lay off the peaceweed!
I just had a couple of random thoughts after reading this.
(1) There are several mentions in Enderal of the death of the false gods, but I don't recall any mentions of the shadow god; I thought that odd.
(2) I wonder why, in the tunnels below Ark near the end, there was that vision of Teleor (sorry spelled it wrong I'm sure) and his false-god lover (what was her name, Iranda or something?).
(3) Could it be that Sarantha was also a High One and they had some falling out so she decided to mess with them?
(4) It's been a long time since I played Nehrim, but remember you had to destroy some crucial book in the firey depths of the world? Maybe that had some greater significance beyond Nehrim.
[2] That vision was shown to reinforce the traitor's resolve to destroy the Numinos (to ruin Tealor into activating the Beacon).
[3] Nope, that couldn't be since the High Ones lack physical form, and they can't interfere except through posession and manipulation.
[4] Maybe, that place is connected to other world(s). The only way to destroy the book is to destroy it at that place.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Ranvena
Posted: 23.08.2016 02:01
In Nehrim however, there's a cycle of Light and Dark masterminded by fate itself, Sarantha.
If an 'emissary' is used in the same way here, then wouldn't that mean that Sarantha was also just a piece in the game and not the hand that moves them?
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by UngodlyGod
Posted: 23.08.2016 13:52
Ranvena wrote:Maybe I misunderstood this during my play-through of Nehrim, but wasn't Sarantha just an emissary of fate, not fate itself?
If she's just an emissary of fate, killing her would be pointless, wouldn't it?
The main reason for destroying the Book of Predestination was to free everyone from fate and destiny. But destroying the book wasn't enough, since we were sent to the Shadow World to confront her. She even declares herself Fate, and has always been our true enemy. In the end, we killed her and everyone is finally free from fate and mankind can now progress through their own choice.
Ranvena wrote: If an 'emissary' is used in the same way here, then wouldn't that mean that Sarantha was also just a piece in the game and not the hand that moves them?
I don't think she's with the High Ones or was used by them, because she made and sustained her own Cycle of The Gods to prevent the world from falling into "imbalance". Sarantha herself said that the Shadow World represents the ruins of worlds that perished due to "imbalance". Maybe the "imbalance" she mentioned is The Cleansing.
Since Arkt and our Nehrim character are still Shadow-gods after we killed Sarantha, that means The False Deities only refer to those who are worshiped by the majority of the world's population. Without Sarantha's cycle, there won't be any new False Deities, and so The Cleansing's cycle can progress naturally.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Cyrenne
Posted: 23.08.2016 20:35
I remember, there was this book in Nehrim, Der erste Krieg, für Schöpfer und Schicksal (sorry, german >_< Should be The first war, for creator and fate (or something like that)).
In the end, the Eliath, creators of fate... strings(?), chose her (Sarantha) for a higher purpose.
And, didn't we kill an Eliath during the main quest? (it's been a while^^ but that's nothing to do with the question or anything.)
So, the creators of the fate strings (I'll call them that, for the time being, as I haven't played the english version and don't know how it was translated), chose her to be the emissary of fate, probably. Because I don't think they would make her fate itself... would they even be able to?
In the end, the Eliath, creators of fate... strings(?), chose her (Sarantha) for a higher purpose.
And, didn't we kill an Eliath during the main quest? (it's been a while^^ but that's nothing to do with the question or anything.)
So, the creators of the fate strings (I'll call them that, for the time being, as I haven't played the english version and don't know how it was translated), chose her to be the emissary of fate, probably. Because I don't think they would make her fate itself... would they even be able to?
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by UngodlyGod
Posted: 24.08.2016 00:39
Cyrenne wrote:I remember, there was this book in Nehrim, Der erste Krieg, für Schöpfer und Schicksal (sorry, german >_< Should be The first war, for creator and fate (or something like that)).
In the end, the Eliath, creators of fate... strings(?), chose her (Sarantha) for a higher purpose.
And, didn't we kill an Eliath during the main quest? (it's been a while^^ but that's nothing to do with the question or anything.)
So, the creators of the fate strings (I'll call them that, for the time being, as I haven't played the english version and don't know how it was translated), chose her to be the emissary of fate, probably. Because I don't think they would make her fate itself... would they even be able to?
Does that mean our actions in Nehrim was pointless in the end? Since we didn't free the world from fate and predestination.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Cyrenne
Posted: 24.08.2016 09:40
Good question^^
I don't think it was pointless. I mean, we destroyed the book and the emissary of fate, right? So either it's done for good or the Eliath will have to write another book (depending on who actually wrote the book, another unanswered question, or maybe it's answered somewhere and I just can't remember it^^) and find another powerfull being to take Saranthas place.
BUT! Since everything is destroyed anyway with the high ones and the purification (if that's the right term, haven't had the time yet to play Enderal in english^^) in each cycle, it's kind of obsolete, don't you think?^^
So, we killed Sarantha, this cycle and universes emissary of fate, destroyed the book of predestination(?) and went on our merry way. Along comes everything that leads to the high ones awakening and the purification, rinse and repeat. That's how it usually goes, how every cycle before has gone, except for the killing of the emissary of fate, cause afair the usual mo with this is, shadow god kills the gods, emissary kills shadow god, the end. We just had some luck with Arkt and him helping us.
I don't think it was pointless. I mean, we destroyed the book and the emissary of fate, right? So either it's done for good or the Eliath will have to write another book (depending on who actually wrote the book, another unanswered question, or maybe it's answered somewhere and I just can't remember it^^) and find another powerfull being to take Saranthas place.
BUT! Since everything is destroyed anyway with the high ones and the purification (if that's the right term, haven't had the time yet to play Enderal in english^^) in each cycle, it's kind of obsolete, don't you think?^^
So, we killed Sarantha, this cycle and universes emissary of fate, destroyed the book of predestination(?) and went on our merry way. Along comes everything that leads to the high ones awakening and the purification, rinse and repeat. That's how it usually goes, how every cycle before has gone, except for the killing of the emissary of fate, cause afair the usual mo with this is, shadow god kills the gods, emissary kills shadow god, the end. We just had some luck with Arkt and him helping us.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by UngodlyGod
Posted: 24.08.2016 11:31
Our actions in Nehrim probably altered something in the grand scheme of things.
The cycle in Enderal was indeed different, because we were helped by The Veiled Woman. Even the Machine said he was surprised being able to meet with us, considering how unlikely it was for it to happen. So it's not as depressing as it seems.
Sad there won't be any more sequels in the world of Vyn.
The cycle in Enderal was indeed different, because we were helped by The Veiled Woman. Even the Machine said he was surprised being able to meet with us, considering how unlikely it was for it to happen. So it's not as depressing as it seems.
Sad there won't be any more sequels in the world of Vyn.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Cyrenne
Posted: 24.08.2016 20:26
Call me crazy but...
What if, by defeating Sarantha we made the appearance of the veiled woman possible? *dundunduuuuun*
What if, by defeating Sarantha we made the appearance of the veiled woman possible? *dundunduuuuun*
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by sirhallin
Posted: 28.08.2016 08:14
what if the veiled woman is the player character from Nehrim, and unbound from fate it was her choice to intervene in the cycle?
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by risiblewilbury
Posted: 31.08.2016 00:27
sirhallin wrote:what if the veiled woman is the player character from Nehrim, and unbound from fate it was her choice to intervene in the cycle?
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Hanekem
Posted: 31.08.2016 17:44
sirhallin wrote:what if the veiled woman is the player character from Nehrim, and unbound from fate it was her choice to intervene in the cycle?
An interesting idea, but the Black Guardian mentioned the Veiled Woman as an old player in this game.
Though she might be free of fate now and able to intervene? I'd probably need to play Neherim...
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Casper
Posted: 31.08.2016 23:37
sirhallin wrote:what if the veiled woman is the player character from Nehrim, and unbound from fate it was her choice to intervene in the cycle?
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Makesin
Posted: 31.08.2016 23:46
Casper wrote:
maybe as a surviving shadow god... having just destroyed fate or fate's messenger, the old pc (from nehrim) now has the ability to alter past events slightly (just spit-balling here)? without fate/order perhaps such things are possible.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by Casper
Posted: 31.08.2016 23:54
Makesin wrote:I doubt that'd be possible since we know the Veiled Woman is oler than that. Not just because the Black Guardian says so, but because we've actually seen her save Maya/Calia, which would put her in action some 15 years before the events of Nehrim and Enderal.Casper wrote:
maybe as a surviving shadow god... having just destroyed fate or fate's messenger, the old pc (from nehrim) now has the ability to alter past events slightly (just spit-balling here)? without fate/order perhaps such things are possible.
---edit
i guess i should note i don't actually agree with my little theory here, i'm just trying to explain if the shadow god can travel through time (after killing fate) they could be the veiled woman. i doubt that actually any of that happened; however, like i said the thought amuses me.
Re: How does Sarantha fit within the Cycle? [SPOILERS] - by dreadrath
Posted: 03.09.2016 16:02
What I would really like to know is if Arkt and my Shadow God would have had the power to survive the Cleansing? They both became extremely powerful, enough so to surpass any Light Born, and the player even inherits the Shadow God Citadel that is supposedly full of power and mystery. Not to mention the Soul Flayer housing Narthazul's soul (Asuming The Player doesn't pass up the chance to become Shadow God and destroy the Soul Flayer)
Arkt himself is a bit of a mystery since I thought there was only supposed to be one Shadow God per cycle, which for a while made me wonder if he was from a previous cycle having somehow escaped death at the hands of that cycle's envoy of Fate. Though I dropped that idea because it holds too little evidence. Still, since there is no evidence Shadow Gods or Light Born of past cycles survived, likely slain by fate's envoy, perhaps even Shadow God's would fall to the Cleansing (I hope not given how much time I put into Nehrim)
I do believe the events of Nehrim however played a major role in why the Prophet of this cycle was able to act differently, and why the Veiled Woman was given the freedom to act this time around. It is a nice thought that the Nehrim Shadow God Player is manifesting as the Veiled Woman, but It's a stretch.
Arkt himself is a bit of a mystery since I thought there was only supposed to be one Shadow God per cycle, which for a while made me wonder if he was from a previous cycle having somehow escaped death at the hands of that cycle's envoy of Fate. Though I dropped that idea because it holds too little evidence. Still, since there is no evidence Shadow Gods or Light Born of past cycles survived, likely slain by fate's envoy, perhaps even Shadow God's would fall to the Cleansing (I hope not given how much time I put into Nehrim)
I do believe the events of Nehrim however played a major role in why the Prophet of this cycle was able to act differently, and why the Veiled Woman was given the freedom to act this time around. It is a nice thought that the Nehrim Shadow God Player is manifesting as the Veiled Woman, but It's a stretch.
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