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Topic title - What would you consider important for Enderal?

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Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by mandos
Posted: 18.07.2012 18:38
Xagul wrote:
"
While the main quest could rely on "He's the chosen one", the side quests could be managed by a trigger for a time limit.
Good point. I am just at my first playthrough of Arktwend, and i noticed some things when comparing it against nehrim and all the elder scrolls. First to your point, i absolutely agree. Quest timers are absolutely essential and can be used as a device to keep your questlog from overflooding, and indefinitely postponing some minor quests. It might be interesting option to abandon quest as well.
When you are send on your first mission of skyrim's mage guild. The guy tells you to be there tommorow, but when i finally got around to do it after half a year, all the students and teachers were just standing there as if it was yesterday. I think that in this case it would be much more interesting to have a note pinned on the door, saying that "you were late, so we did the exploration without you, for your assignement you have to bring some artifacts from Sarthal" < and this would launch pretty much the same quest, with only difference that you would not have any assistance in the ruins. Or you could go back to Guild and get that teacher. Or something other.

My next suggestion which i have realized is that the sleeping/resting mechanics are not really doing any good to the system as a whole. Summoning the resting/waiting dialogue anytime you want is sort of waste of potential for all those taverns, inns and sleeping bags and tents in game. If you could limit the sleeping dialogue to beds, and cut off the waiting at wish this could be huge improvement...in my opinion.

The last thing which i would like to throw into the mix is your approach into economics of the game. At the moment in terms of money management if you played one elder scrolls, you played them all (including Arktwend, Nehrim, (hopefully not) Enderal). In Nehrim, my troubles with finances ended the moment i found mortar and pestle. In Skyrim you can pretty soon in game craft potions from 2 alchemy ingredients which you can sell for 1000 gold...so first thing thats need to be done is to make self made potions to be of 0 value. Second, i had an idea that it would be more interesting when you are low on funds you could rent a house...or room. Cheaper than inn (paid in weeks not every day), cheaper than buying a house, yet you have access to it only if you pay your rent regularly, and if you for some reason cant than you loose the house(however items stored in there would be waiting for you when you pay your rent again). This way you could keep moneymaking to be real, consequentional, and required. And the menial jobs would have much more sense than, woodcutting would be essential, and you could create much more employements(for example courier, could work like the wanted quests in nehrim, no voice acting required, just pickup a bunch of letters that needs to be delivered to city where you are going, and in 2 days you have to deliver them :) You could still do the same thing as in every other game (raid dungeons etc.), but it would be nice to have an incentive to play the game differently, thats what rpgs are for :)

P.S: It might be a little soon to ask, but are you thinking about incorporating something like hard core mode from New Vegas? You know, hunger, thirst, sleep, maybe some of the features mentioned above for hardcore rpg gamers, but still friendly for newbies to simply opt out of it?:)
Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by Entainel
Posted: 18.07.2012 23:03
More ritualistic magic. Let's say, better magnitude of a spell if ingredient used. Longer casting time but stronger effects. Maybe something like combo-casting in order to get wanted effect. For instance:

What I mean... (description of kinetic magic)
1.Player starts incantation[that could be much longer than skyrimz shout loadings] lets call it Telekinetic push(or whatever!)
2.If player will not do anything else, while incantating kinetic push, at the end of incantation he will just skyrim fusrodah/star wars force push/other fiction telekinetic attack. Magnitude will depend on the time spent on incantation... Nothing differs from skyrim for now. But hear me, hear me. Now the fun part.
3. If, just before/during incantation, player channels on right hand water element, and on the left hand wind element... he would get cooled water, that would be Ice attack : ), here we go for fireball!,Fire and wind... etc... etc... after each spell cast 'elements' on hands would reset to 'empty' so player would have to pick them again to cast another spell(shout cooldown would add another factor that mage would have to deal with when choosing what spell he haz to cast on enemy/himself/friend). (combine this with key-binds 1. Wind, 2. Water, 3. Fire, 4. Earth, 5. Void, 6. whatever... and we get almost real-like incantations ; ) )

Magic would not be click-to-kill anymore ! And player would have to time everything well, and focus like 'real' mage ; )


Ritual circle ? Summoning? With first incantation player creates 3 - stage ritual circle
1(FUS! ; ] ). Establishing circle with channeling (could look like protection circle or rune)letz call it "life" or "creation" element
2(RO!). continue with 'life' element on one hand but on other hand water.
3.(dah ). two hands water now, and soon end of the incantation.

We have living frost elemental! For 'summoning' there can be item requirement, sth like 'spark of life crystal' or soul crystal... rly whatever! still there is more challenge in magic done like this than simple click-to-cast.

Combinations and spells would be unlimited. I would eat my pants if magic in Enderal would look like this or at least some part/one school of magic.

Some spells could be prepared to cast earlier and kept in... Yeah, what? Maybe head, with limited space for it. Please do not dissapoint me with magic in Enderal like magic in skyrim did. Only spells that I found immersive were... well... Ward spells...

Yes for more challenging and immersive magic system! (and whoah, some spells players will have to/could get to know on their own! or studying proper in-game book for instrutions :O! )


Think of magic veins where casted spells are stronger. Or ancient teleportation ritual circles etched in stones, that could glow like dragon words in skyrim. Those veins and circles could be for one-time-use but with recovery time like harvested plants that grow again. From the tech-side additionally it could be like that:

Shout recovery bar would be cooldown bar for spells as well... why ? Cause mana pool would be like 2000 almost not able to regenerate points, only by meditation/mana veins/breaking soul gems rituals(not allowed during a fight) This would add impression of getting tired.
And now? If magica is out, and still casting spells? CONSUME HEALTH! at great rates. Magic is dangerous art after all.
(Concentration perks for lower incantation[shout] cooldown, so many possibilities )

Weakest spells could be casted without incantation, like telekinesis that would lift items up to certain weight or those small funny fire-bolts or pure-energy(kinetic) pushes.


Sorry for my poor english.
I am a bit ill so please be understanding.
Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by Nicolas Samuel
Posted: 19.07.2012 07:25
Entainel wrote:
More ritualistic magic. Let's say, better magnitude of a spell if ingredient used. Longer casting time but stronger effects. Maybe something like combo-casting in order to get wanted effect. For instance:

What I mean... (description of kinetic magic)
1.Player starts incantation[that could be much longer than skyrimz shout loadings] lets call it Telekinetic push(or whatever!)
2.If player will not do anything else, while incantating kinetic push, at the end of incantation he will just skyrim fusrodah/star wars force push/other fiction telekinetic attack. Magnitude will depend on the time spent on incantation... Nothing differs from skyrim for now. But hear me, hear me. Now the fun part.
3. If, just before/during incantation, player channels on right hand water element, and on the left hand wind element... he would get cooled water, that would be Ice attack : ), here we go for fireball!,Fire and wind... etc... etc... after each spell cast 'elements' on hands would reset to 'empty' so player would have to pick them again to cast another spell(shout cooldown would add another factor that mage would have to deal with when choosing what spell he haz to cast on enemy/himself/friend). (combine this with key-binds 1. Wind, 2. Water, 3. Fire, 4. Earth, 5. Void, 6. whatever... and we get almost real-like incantations ; ) )

Magic would not be click-to-kill anymore ! And player would have to time everything well, and focus like 'real' mage ; )

Thanks for your suggestion! That's a very nice idea indeed, but it also would take a lot of time and scripting to implement. We'll think abour your suggestion - But be reasurred that we already decided on some deep changes in the magic system. :)
Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by badgesareus
Posted: 20.07.2012 03:37
If you could limit the sleeping dialogue to beds, and cut off the waiting
There are many times when waiting is necessary and there are no inns or beds nearby. For example, sometimes (often, actually) my follower (in Skyrim) gets lost somewhere, but by waiting an hour he/she suddenly appears. Sometimes I need to sell some loot to a shop that should be open but is still closed, so I wait an hour. What should I do, go to an inn at 8 AM and rent a room so I can sleep for 1 hour? Sometimes I must wait a few hours until morning or until night, or until someone goes to sleep. Finding an inn is not feasible.
More ritualistic magic. Let's say, better magnitude of a spell if ingredient used. Longer casting time but stronger effects. Maybe something like combo-casting in order to get wanted effect. For instance:

What I mean... (description of kinetic magic)
1.Player starts incantation[that could be much longer than skyrimz shout loadings] lets call it Telekinetic push(or whatever!)
2.If player will not do anything else, while incantating kinetic push, at the end of incantation he will just skyrim fusrodah/star wars force push/other fiction telekinetic attack. Magnitude will depend on the time spent on incantation... Nothing differs from skyrim for now. But hear me, hear me. Now the fun part.
3. If, just before/during incantation, player channels on right hand water element, and on the left hand wind element... he would get cooled water, that would be Ice attack : ), here we go for fireball!,Fire and wind... etc... etc... after each spell cast 'elements' on hands would reset to 'empty' so player would have to pick them again to cast another spell(shout cooldown would add another factor that mage would have to deal with when choosing what spell he haz to cast on enemy/himself/friend). (combine this with key-binds 1. Wind, 2. Water, 3. Fire, 4. Earth, 5. Void, 6. whatever... and we get almost real-like incantations ; ) )

Magic would not be click-to-kill anymore ! And player would have to time everything well, and focus like 'real' mage ; )


Ritual circle ? Summoning? With first incantation player creates 3 - stage ritual circle
1(FUS! ; ] ). Establishing circle with channeling (could look like protection circle or rune)letz call it "life" or "creation" element
2(RO!). continue with 'life' element on one hand but on other hand water.
3.(dah ). two hands water now, and soon end of the incantation.
Takes too much time (and reminds me quite a bit of Two Worlds II). When I need a spell, usually, I need it RIGHT NOW.
This way you could keep moneymaking to be real, consequentional, and required. And the menial jobs would have much more sense than, woodcutting would be essential
I most enjoy exploration and discovery in an RPG. Quests that advance exploration and discovery are most welcome. When I pass through an area the first time, I want to explore it fully. After that, having to travel the same path by foot or animal just wastes time and is BORING, which is why I prefer fast travel to places already discovered. Having to chop wood or pick potatoes once an hour is BORING. Look, fantasy RPGs are not realistic by nature. I recall some where you had to eat and sleep regularly or lose energy or health. What next, have a bladder bar that reminds you to pee every hour or your mana melts away? Many of these time-wasting devices are put into commercial RPGs so the marketers can claim "60 hours of game play", when in fact, it is 30 hours of game play and 30 hours of time-wasting. Well, I better get off of my soap box (I wonder if that translates into German).
Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by Entainel
Posted: 20.07.2012 11:04
1.About magic.
Takes too much time (and reminds me quite a bit of Two Worlds II). When I need a spell, usually, I need it RIGHT NOW.
Dunno wat Two Worlds II is... but too much time? It would just take a bit more time than regular 3-part shout in Skyrim. Player should have some skill and put work in mastering fast changes in spells between loading shout parts (adding shout-part bar to the interface would not be a problem at all). Spells would be just a little slower but should be stronger. I just can't stand that every mage in TES is fireball-AK-47, wtf? Magic in all decent fantasy books/games/movies was not something that needs just a blink of an eye. Maybe mastering certain magic schools would allow to cast magic faster but novices doing fire-apocalypse to all enemies from the very beginning of the game is just wrong, WRONG. Maybe not all of the spells... but some of them?

In my further part of da prev post I wrote that there could be a system that would allow to pre-cast spells and keep like 2 or 3 'pre-loaded' for instant use. (we know that from somewhere ? ; P)

2. About travel-system:

I agree that there should be some good travel system, like teleports in Morrowind or carriages... But I say BIG no for fast-travel/teleports everywhere.
I do not consider running through well-made world again and again a waste of time(1.I like immersion, 2. I love travels :D). Why? Because it forces player to consider the benefits of going somewhere or not going... Everything in Enderal should be made to affect player decisions as the real world events affect us to do something or not to do. For example I carve a choco bar but I am to lazy to go to the shop, so I won't. (I hope you guys see what stands behind that example and I don't have to explain it further : P ).
Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by mandos
Posted: 20.07.2012 13:15
Entainel wrote:
I agree that there should be some good travel system, like teleports in Morrowind or carriages... But I say BIG no for fast-travel/teleports everywhere.
100% Agree. But i think that they had this down pretty much in Nehrim, so i dont think that fast travel will be coming back anytime soon.
Although i would hope that they introduce more varied travel system, like in morrowind, and less Rune fasttravel. It becomes a little easy after a while. Almsivi/Divine interventions were the best for getting out of a hotspots, and random part of it was a +.
In my further part of da prev post I wrote that there could be a system that would allow to pre-cast spells and keep like 2 or 3 'pre-loaded' for instant use. (we know that from somewhere ? ; P)
just to be sure, did you meant Arx Fatalis?:)
badgesareus wrote:

I most enjoy exploration and discovery in an RPG. Quests that advance exploration and discovery are most welcome. When I pass through an area the first time, I want to explore it fully. Having to chop wood or pick potatoes once an hour is BORING. Look, fantasy RPGs are not realistic by nature. I recall some where you had to eat and sleep regularly or lose energy or health. What next, have a bladder bar that reminds you to pee every hour or your mana melts away? Many of these time-wasting devices are put into commercial RPGs so the marketers can claim "60 hours of game play", when in fact, it is 30 hours of game play and 30 hours of time-wasting.
It seems that you are confusing rpg with a sandbox action game like just cause, far cry, or...you know... Skyrim. Nothing against them, they are great fun, but Rpgs? Please. When you say that you want them to focus on exploration and discovery, what you are asking for is medieval hiking simulator, actual reduction of rpg elements, more of a streamliners approach. I had enough of that in Skyrim, Oblivion, Mass Effect, Just Cause, etc.... only exception to this from modern era is New Vegas, and i wouldnt call that exactly "device for artificially prolonging the amount of gameplay that we can stick onto the box". Would you mind specifing which "commercial" games suffer from this "too much rpg elements" plague? I would love to play them.

Aim of my objection against easy moneymaking is not that it needs to be intentionaly frustrating, but there needs to be variety of possibilities to earn, as well as where to spend them. In the current Skyrim setup, you spend half off the game just hoarding and selling stuff for money, and when having enough of them...you realize that you dont need them for...pretty much anything. You can just level faster by training, or buy crafting items instead of hunting for them...which makes a little difference in the end.

Problem with Skyrim is in my opinion that it doesnt offer pretty much anything else than killing stuff in the same fashion and then running around (quite small) map looking at the environment. I want more. I want actual interaction, not just pretty looking prop.
For example your objection that you need often wait 1 hour or so is legit, but it only works because the whole system is setup the way it is, that you dont need to be aware of such issues as time, part of the day that you are currently in, etc.
If you for example would have to sleep in game, the game would get a new dimension, in which you would be sleeping at night and questing in a day, or vice versa for a thief, or any combination in between. I t would take actual planning and decision making, not just rushing from one dungeon to another, unloading stuff at the trader, rinse,repeat.

Who the hell buys games based on how much of gameplay it promises anyway? Skyrim got boring and empty after 50 hours for me in this regard, should i ask for a refund? :)
Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by badgesareus
Posted: 20.07.2012 20:01
What is the problem with having fast travel for those who prefer it? If you enjoy walking across the same paths you've already explored, over and over and over again, the existence of a fast travel system does not prohibit that. Whether there is a fast travel system available by map clicking or carriage-clicking (such as Skyrim), or using runes and teleports (such as Nehrim, in part), or some other method shouldn't matter to you. Just don't use it and walk everywhere. For example, in Skyrim, if you are in Riften and you must travel to Solitude, you can fast-travel by map-clicking if you have already been there, or fast-travel using the carriage. However, nothing prohibits you from walking all the way, if you prefer to do so -- but how long would it take (in real-time minutes)? And those of us who want to do something more interesting with our time can use the fast travel system. Maybe you like alchemy and you want to pick the plants that respawn. Maybe instead of using them to make potions, you should be able to smoke them.
It seems that you are confusing rpg with a sandbox action game like just cause, far cry, or...you know... Skyrim.
How absurd. Just Cause is a third-person shooter, and Far Cry is a first-person shooter. On the other hand, Skyrim has been named RPG Game of the Year by several different publications and organizations, (as was its Elder Scrolls predecessors), so if you don't believe that Skyrim is an RPG, there are obviously many who would disagree with you.
Dunno wat Two Worlds II is
Two Worlds II is an RPG sequel to Two Worlds. It has a rather unique and complex magic system. If you like playing mage-type characters, you should take a look at its magic. I'm sure you can do a search and locate the 2W2 forum which has a guide to it.
Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by Entainel
Posted: 21.07.2012 13:18
badgesareus wrote:
What is the problem with having fast travel for those who prefer it? If you enjoy walking across the same paths you've already explored, over and over and over again, the existence of a fast travel system does not prohibit that. Whether there is a fast travel system available by map clicking or carriage-clicking (such as Skyrim), or using runes and teleports (such as Nehrim, in part), or some other method shouldn't matter to you. Just don't use it and walk everywhere. For example, in Skyrim, if you are in Riften and you must travel to Solitude, you can fast-travel by map-clicking if you have already been there, or fast-travel using the carriage.
Entainel wrote:
Why? Because it forces player to consider the benefits of going somewhere or not going... Everything in Enderal should be made to affect player decisions as the real world events affect us to do something or not to do.
It's like I already answered that xD. You want fast travel? Ok, but I think game should be done in a way that does not consider such things or otherwise it will be spoiled. I can agree that fast travel can be an OPTION for lazy power-gamers with no immersion sense at all : P
Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by badgesareus
Posted: 22.07.2012 03:28
I can agree that fast travel can be an OPTION for lazy power-gamers with no immersion sense at all
Lazy? Probably, that's why I sit on my butt playing PC RPGs instead of cutting the grass or washing the car. Power-Gamer? I don't know what that means, but it sounds pretty cool so I'd like to be one. Oh, but my favorite weapon is a longbow and I rarely use magic, so can I still be a Power-Gamer? No immersion sense? That's probably true; I've played through Nehrim 5 times and average about 115 hours each time, and my first play-through in Skyrim ended at 170+ hours, so its true if I had any sense I wouldn't immerse myself like that. Fast travel an OPTION? Yeesss, why not? Put it in the game settings so you could turn it on or off, so those who want to immerse themselves by walking everywhere could turn it off and not be tempted to use it even once! In fact, I think the same setting should also turn off the ability to run, so you could really walk everywhere to fully immerse yourself; you could still sprint a short distance if you really had to! :wink:
Re: What would you consider important for Enderal? - by mandos
Posted: 22.07.2012 09:32
Skyrim has been named RPG Game of the Year by several different publications and organizations, (as was its Elder Scrolls predecessors), so if you don't believe that Skyrim is an RPG, there are obviously many who would disagree with you.
Of course they are, and i could write a ten thousand word essay on why they are wrong. But we can continue that discussion in another topic, i dont want to hijack this thread.
if you are in Riften and you must travel to Solitude, you can fast-travel by map-clicking if you have already been there, or fast-travel using the carriage. However, nothing prohibits you from walking all the way, if you prefer to do so
i never said that i am against transportation as a whole, i said i am against fast travel, which is a huge difference.
Maybe you like alchemy and you want to pick the plants that respawn. Maybe instead of using them to make potions, you should be able to smoke them.
Yes, it would be nice, but my next question would be how does that enhances gameplay (i am not saying it cant). One more time, there is a sentiment nowadays that game (an RPG) needs to have almost the same amount (usually greater) of "action"(read fighting) as its counterparts in action genres. What does then separates it from being called an action game? Being a first person? Third? Its a shooter? First person hack and slasher? Whats the difference then? As i said before, what i like about rpg games is that you are allowed to play them differently, and to your liking. Streamlining is killing rpgs in my opinion. From what you are saying it looks like it is possible to rpg ANY game that is out there, rpg or not.
I think the same setting should also turn off the ability to run, so you could really walk everywhere to fully immerse yourself; you could still sprint a short distance if you really had to!
Exactly thats my point! I actually agree with you! I have already said this in my first reply to this topic, but imagine that simple running would drain your fatigue somewhat more significantly than it is now (ehm, "now" is not draining at all actually). You would actually had some kind of incentive to ride a horse! Which is at the moment, honestly, none. It would actually be good for something, not just yey im riding a horse, no matter that i can run faster on my legs...and for longer time...

Please tell me honestly, do you think that there is any use for horses now in Skyrim? Except that "they are there".
I think this is the essence of "lazyness" in game development.
Just putting something in for sake of it being there, without any thoughts on how it ties to the overall concept of gameplay. Or cutting something out in the same fashion, instead of making it functioning for the concept. Like weapon and armor condition.
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