[SPOILERS] The ending. How do I feel about it.

[Moirai]

<SNIP>

In a different thread (http://forum.sureai.net/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=11274) I had stated:

«A true artist does not provide the people with what they want. A true artist offers the people what they need.
In general, the people do not know what they need, but they sure think they know what they want.
The artist is the one who, among them, knows better.»

I guess it's as you say, indeed: «it depends on what you personally look for in games, and what you expect to get out of them as a result».

In which case I probably need sunny days and fluffy bunnies.

Being serious though, that may be true in some instances. However, there is a certain amount of pretension associated with artistry that cannot be ignored.

But perhaps, 'positive' is a better word than 'happy'...

[Ragnarok]

In which case I probably need sunny days and fluffy bunnies.

Being serious though, that may be true in some instances. However, there is a certain amount of pretension associated with artistry that cannot be ignored.

But perhaps, 'positive' is a better word than 'happy'...

I disagree.

Art is not about being "positive", "negative", "happy" or "sad". These are only components it can use.
True art is transcendental - that's its real trait. It depends on context, of course (because the true artists have the intuition to offer what the audience needs at that given time), but it transcends its origin and transports the audience's mindset to consequently transcend its own context and experience.

Still, each to its own. It is up to each of us to decide which type of art we contemplate, by all means.

The things is true transcendence is very rarely available nowadays, given that markets always try to offer what people think they want or feel they want, which makes it easier for you to find fluffy bunnies and harder for me to find transcendence.

[Braescher]

This is the part I disagree the most. I am an artist myself (music) and I never seen art with this goal.

In my opinion,

Knowing what people "need" is the job of the marketing department, focus testing etc. Sure, most "entertainers" perform with the audience preferences in mind. But saying that a true artist knows what his audience needs would be too much presumption. Art is expression, expression is personal most of the times. The artist is not expressing what his audience needs, the artist is expressing what he feels regardless of the audience. It is as simple as that. Selfish? Yes.

Also, transcendence is not the real trait of art, is another component. Because every artist express in a different way. Sure, it might come down to personal taste but you can enjoy art and appreciate its quality even when it is not transcendental. I transcend listening to a Pink Floyd album for instance, but when I watch Pulp Fiction I do not transcend nor do I want to. However I consider Pulp Fiction to be in the same level of quality than most Pink Floyd albums. Sometimes art is not trying to achieve transcendence, but introspection instead.

That being said I think Enderal tried to achieve something in the wrong media/genre.

And this is the original point of this thread. At one point the story does not match the engine and mechanics. This is the unique trait of games as a form of art. Each form of art relies on its own mechanics. For music you engineer the sound, for acting you design the feelings, for photography/painting you design the image and every one of those forms of art is coherent with its mechanics. It is the reason why most of times you don't play samba with an accordion or metal with a bongo. You can fit those instruments in those styles but if you might need to adjust the original style of the song to accomodate those instruments.

Games have to be coherent with their engine and mechanics. That is the reason you don't see for example a text based shooter or a real time strategy dating simulator. You could create those games but you would have to adjust the mechanics. The ending is well written. The game story in general is amazing. But I believe the game engine, gameplay mechanics and all the freedom you have in game do not match with the type of story the writter is trying to tell. Such downer ending that strips you of all the power you had during the journey would better fit non interactive media or at least games with that have more restrained mechanics. An open world western rpg (even if the mod is designed to be different the engine still feels like it) that you are free to do whatever you want feels frustrating when it decides at random that you have no power at all.

Take the vanilla game, Skyrim for example. Sure, the story could be deep, emotional, sad and the story could end with Alduin devouring Tamriel while the Dragonborn remains sole survivor to repopulate Nirn. Sure, the writters could do something like that, but what would be the point to do so in an open world RPG? Skyrim engine is built for a power fantasy with happy ending. The engine main selling point it is the infinite radiant quests and that made Skyrim a juggernaut top selling RPG. The engine matches the story in such a way that you can achieve total immersion because you cannot detach the storytelling from the game mechanics and visuals.


Another example would be the Witcher series. Sure, you can make crucial decisions on that game and you have, specially in the third game a LOT of freedom. But you know from the start that you are Geralt of Rivia. Your decisions are based on Geralt's personality. The game will not give you the freedom to be chaotic evil because Geralt is not evil. You are not 100% free and you know that from the start. Even when you choose something that can be considered a bit mean, the dialogue and voice acting are tailored in such a way that you feel like Geralt really believes that is the best option available.

Enderal would be much more consistent if we did not have that much freedom to begin with or if it used another game engine. I cannot deny the history the SureAi team has with modding Bethesda games, but something tells me that if they told the Enderal story on another engine, maybe a whole new indie game this dissonance would disappear provided the mechanics were adjusted to the story.

[Ragnarok]

This is the part I disagree the most. I am an artist myself (music) and I never seen art with this goal.

In my opinion,

Knowing what people "need" is the job of the marketing department, focus testing etc. Sure, most "entertainers" perform with the audience preferences in mind. But saying that a true artist knows what his audience needs would be too much presumption. Art is expression, expression is personal most of the times. The artist is not expressing what his audience needs, the artist is expressing what he feels regardless of the audience. It is as simple as that. Selfish? Yes.

Also, transcendence is not the real trait of art, is another component. Because every artist express in a different way. Sure, it might come down to personal taste but you can enjoy art and appreciate its quality even when it is not transcendental. I transcend listening to a Pink Floyd album for instance, but when I watch Pulp Fiction I do not transcend nor do I want to. However I consider Pulp Fiction to be in the same level of quality than most Pink Floyd albums. Sometimes art is not trying to achieve transcendence, but introspection instead.

That being said I think Enderal tried to achieve something in the wrong media/genre.

And this is the original point of this thread. At one point the story does not match the engine and mechanics. This is the unique trait of games as a form of art. Each form of art relies on its own mechanics. For music you engineer the sound, for acting you design the feelings, for photography/painting you design the image and every one of those forms of art is coherent with its mechanics. It is the reason why most of times you don't play samba with an accordion or metal with a bongo. You can fit those instruments in those styles but if you might need to adjust the original style of the song to accomodate those instruments.

Games have to be coherent with their engine and mechanics. That is the reason you don't see for example a text based shooter or a real time strategy dating simulator. You could create those games but you would have to adjust the mechanics. The ending is well written. The game story in general is amazing. But I believe the game engine, gameplay mechanics and all the freedom you have in game do not match with the type of story the writter is trying to tell. Such downer ending that strips you of all the power you had during the journey would better fit non interactive media or at least games with that have more restrained mechanics. An open world western rpg (even if the mod is designed to be different the engine still feels like it) that you are free to do whatever you want feels frustrating when it decides at random that you have no power at all.

Take the vanilla game, Skyrim for example. Sure, the story could be deep, emotional, sad and the story could end with Alduin devouring Tamriel while the Dragonborn remains sole survivor to repopulate Nirn. Sure, the writters could do something like that, but what would be the point to do so in an open world RPG? Skyrim engine is built for a power fantasy with happy ending. The engine main selling point it is the infinite radiant quests and that made Skyrim a juggernaut top selling RPG. The engine matches the story in such a way that you can achieve total immersion because you cannot detach the storytelling from the game mechanics and visuals.


Another example would be the Witcher series. Sure, you can make crucial decisions on that game and you have, specially in the third game a LOT of freedom. But you know from the start that you are Geralt of Rivia. Your decisions are based on Geralt's personality. The game will not give you the freedom to be chaotic evil because Geralt is not evil. You are not 100% free and you know that from the start. Even when you choose something that can be considered a bit mean, the dialogue and voice acting are tailored in such a way that you feel like Geralt really believes that is the best option available.

Enderal would be much more consistent if we did not have that much freedom to begin with or if it used another game engine. I cannot deny the history the SureAi team has with modding Bethesda games, but something tells me that if they told the Enderal story on another engine, maybe a whole new indie game this dissonance would disappear provided the mechanics were adjusted to the story.

Marketing? We are talking about different kinds of "needs" for sure. The word may mean something to you and something different to me, as it seems to be the case. It is not about the need for a new fitted shirt or a better car, it is about the latent human need for transcendence - that is what real art has always triggered.

What marketing aims for is to either discover what makes people feel good and give it to them (which is not necessarily what people need) or to create new emotional needs and then provide nourishment for them.

It seems also that you may be confusing my opinion with enjoying sad endings (which is taken from your Skyrim reference). I repeat that "sad", "happy" or whatever feelings are components, in a sort of alchemical way, that a story uses to achieve any sort of transcendence. The artist who writes or composes or paints or sculpts should be the least worried about what people will feel and mostly concerned with what the piece is transmitting. Now it is important to keep the piece of art within the language of its period, so that it enables it to be "read" or understood by the audience, but a true piece of art will also transcend that language, that style, that technique, that superfluous appearance (and even that game engine) and have a deeper code that speaks to us without words. It goes beyond the artist and the social context and presents an experience that holds archetypal value.

The true artist will almost always "feel" (to use your word for art creation) and express what the audience needs. His personal experience is, by itself, already transcendental and therefore able to transmit it to others.

Nevertheless, if Nicholas Samuel wants to be a successful writer he should hear your opinion earnestly.
It is I, myself, who am not among the audience for that, so I am the odd one here, for sure.

[Braescher]

Ah, you made yourself a lot clearer now. I can agree that art creation itself is already an experience of achieving transcendence. Sure, to create art the artist must percieve the world with a level of abstraction that is trasncendent to the human perception of the world, that much I agree.

And I can understand that some art forms can trasncend their boundaries. Sure, a real talented musician might fit the accordion on the samba as I have said before, but doing so requires subverting the music genre to fit that element. Just as I think that Enderal could feel less dissonant if the core mechanics were overhauled.

To be honest with you, I think that art is much more technical than we like to think. Specially when talking about entertainement. Sure, there is the element human need for transcendence, personal expression, cultural expression etc. But "commercial art", pieces of entertainment that are avaible for masses of consumers are tailored within the boundaries and "rules" of marketing etc. That is why I said that finding out what people need/want/feel good about, is a job for the marketing and not the artist.

But then again it is very hard to judge if a piece of art has commercial intentions or not.

[Moirai]

While Enderal's story is well written and paced, with some excellent dialogue, it's core plot concept and sub elements are not unique or fundamentally original. So I think that potentially discussing it in terms of transcendent art may be overstepping the mark slightly. It's a game story.

[Ragnarok]

While Enderal's story is well written and paced, with some excellent dialogue, it's core plot concept and sub elements are not unique or fundamentally original. So I think that potentially discussing it in terms of transcendent art may be overstepping the mark slightly. It's a game story.

Where exactly have I mentioned originality or uniqueness?

If there is one trait to archetypes (which is a strong tool and theme in Enderal's story) is its repetitiveness, its ability to emerge from (apparent) nowhere and influence the "now" as it had influenced the "back then"! Transcendence has nothing to do with originality or uniqueness. I have stated in my post that «a true piece of art will also transcend that language, that style, that technique, that superfluous appearance (and even that game engine) and have a deeper code that speaks to us without words», which implies that it relies on the technique, on the language, on the styles, on the social context, etc - and yet it surpasses them, it becomes universal and transcends human experience.

There is nothing original about this, nor should there be. That is not what I've been saying.
In any case, like I said, I am perfectly fine with whatever other people prefer or interpret. I just ask that what I am trying to say is not undermined if there is an attempt at trying to understand what I want to convey. I surely don't ask to be understood. What I am trying to do is to show the value I found in this magnificent piece of art (particularly the writing). I don't care much for razzle dazzle.

[Cassiopeia]

That being said I think Enderal tried to achieve something in the wrong media/genre.

And this is the original point of this thread. At one point the story does not match the engine and mechanics. This is the unique trait of games as a form of art. Each form of art relies on its own mechanics. For music you engineer the sound, for acting you design the feelings, for photography/painting you design the image and every one of those forms of art is coherent with its mechanics. It is the reason why most of times you don't play samba with an accordion or metal with a bongo. You can fit those instruments in those styles but if you might need to adjust the original style of the song to accomodate those instruments.

Games have to be coherent with their engine and mechanics. That is the reason you don't see for example a text based shooter or a real time strategy dating simulator. You could create those games but you would have to adjust the mechanics. The ending is well written. The game story in general is amazing. But I believe the game engine, gameplay mechanics and all the freedom you have in game do not match with the type of story the writter is trying to tell. Such downer ending that strips you of all the power you had during the journey would better fit non interactive media or at least games with that have more restrained mechanics. An open world western rpg (even if the mod is designed to be different the engine still feels like it) that you are free to do whatever you want feels frustrating when it decides at random that you have no power at all.

Take the vanilla game, Skyrim for example. Sure, the story could be deep, emotional, sad and the story could end with Alduin devouring Tamriel while the Dragonborn remains sole survivor to repopulate Nirn. Sure, the writters could do something like that, but what would be the point to do so in an open world RPG? Skyrim engine is built for a power fantasy with happy ending. The engine main selling point it is the infinite radiant quests and that made Skyrim a juggernaut top selling RPG. The engine matches the story in such a way that you can achieve total immersion because you cannot detach the storytelling from the game mechanics and visuals.

Enderal would be much more consistent if we did not have that much freedom to begin with or if it used another game engine. I cannot deny the history the SureAi team has with modding Bethesda games, but something tells me that if they told the Enderal story on another engine, maybe a whole new indie game this dissonance would disappear provided the mechanics were adjusted to the story.

I disagree. Ultimately art is subjective and I don't mean to invalidate your experience, but I thought the contrast between power fantasy and futility was one of the most striking and poignant things about Enderal.

Skyrim is obviously a power fantasy, and there are points where (largely due to mechanics but also due to writing) Enderal is, too. Characters remark on how incredible the PC's abilities are, and on the fact that they save the day more often than anyone would reasonably expect.

And yet, despite that, there are things the PC cannot do.

[+]

You can't control your nightmares, or prevent yourself from being manipulated, or solve your friends' trauma. You can be the greatest rogue in the world and still get caught sneaking around an enemy camp, and your friends can die when you saw them less than 5 minutes ago.

No matter how powerful you are, there are things you can't change. Enderal isn't a power fantasy overall, but it's clearly about a person who is (and perceives themself as) quite powerful, and both the mechanics AND the writing reflect this. There is a lot of dissonance between feeling powerful and powerless, but for me that felt like a feature (and a very well-crafted one), not an accident.

If the game mechanics gave you less freedom or power, less control, then the player wouldn't be as affected by the loss of control, and in my opinion that would not make as much sense with the story and would make the experience much less powerful.

But then, I've always liked dissonance (I'm a musician, too ).

[Braescher]

I disagree. Ultimately art is subjective

And that is the reason that despite the disagreement, I can understand your point, Ragnarok's point and I think you are not wrong in your opinion.

But I feel that if the overal mechanics were even less like Bethesda games the experience would be enhanced. Feeling frustrated is all right, it is a part of the experience. The writter wanted to create frustation in some parts of the story. But my frustration did not came from the story, it came from my expectations being gutted on the ending. You can see that they tried to make the gameplay more limited in some aspects. When you explore the world, the paths are way more linear and straight foward than Skyrim. The map has clear paths, you navigate within certain boundaries that do not exist in Skyrim. There is no place like the gigantic plains between Whiterun and Dawnstar, for example. If you want to go to the east side of the Enderal map you have to go trough that narrow montain pass that separates east and west. To some extent you can see that they tried to limit some mechanics and features.

Dissonances are fundamental to music (I love them too). But there is a difference between a dissonant chord and a tuneless one. Even dissonances have some "rules" (focus on the quotation marks).

Maybe Enderal should be more like Mass Effect and Final Fantasy. More like Mass Effect 2/3 in their approach to the wolrd space, no open world, a few hubs and several straight fowards quests with more linear paths. And more like Final Fantasy with a character that is not our avatar, but instead its own character with his own mindset and decision making process like Cloud, Squall, Zidane etc.

If the character does something that leads the story to a frustrating moment, the frustration is mitigated and feels like a natural part of the story. The frustration stays inside the game world even if you feel it in real life. If MY roleplaying avatar does something that leads the game to a frustration moment were I am frustrated at a design decision I just feel frustrated in real life and I have bad feelings about the game I am playing. That is the difference. Sure, there are people who would claim that the latter is stronger and therefore preferable as a story element but I just think it breaks the immersion since I have bad feelings about the game and not about something in the game.

[Moirai]

While Enderal's story is well written and paced, with some excellent dialogue, it's core plot concept and sub elements are not unique or fundamentally original. So I think that potentially discussing it in terms of transcendent art may be overstepping the mark slightly. It's a game story.

Where exactly have I mentioned originality or uniqueness?

If there is one trait to archetypes (which is a strong tool and theme in Enderal's story) is its repetitiveness, its ability to emerge from (apparent) nowhere and influence the "now" as it had influenced the "back then"! Transcendence has nothing to do with originality or uniqueness. I have stated in my post that «a true piece of art will also transcend that language, that style, that technique, that superfluous appearance (and even that game engine) and have a deeper code that speaks to us without words», which implies that it relies on the technique, on the language, on the styles, on the social context, etc - and yet it surpasses them, it becomes universal and transcends human experience.

There is nothing original about this, nor should there be. That is not what I've been saying.
In any case, like I said, I am perfectly fine with whatever other people prefer or interpret. I just ask that what I am trying to say is not undermined if there is an attempt at trying to understand what I want to convey. I surely don't ask to be understood. What I am trying to do is to show the value I found in this magnificent piece of art (particularly the writing). I don't care much for razzle dazzle.

It is certainly not my intention to undermine others perception of the game. I simply don't understand where you are seeing this transcendent nature within the Enderal. However, if you've no requirement to be understood on the matter, then I shall respect that and not inquire further. *bows*

But on the matter of uniqueness and originality, perhaps I should be a little more clear. I'm not talking about this in general story telling terms. I'm talking about the fact that the core plot framework of Enderal and its related sub elements are a close mirror to those of Mass Effect 3. Anyone who has played the latter and then Enderal should not fail to see the many striking similarities between them. If you want more clarity, I'm happy to list some of them.

Now, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that, and I don't have an issue with it. However, from my personal perspective, other than the specific setting, characters and unique dialogue (which are all exceptionally well done), I've effectively experienced this 'story' before in variation. So, in that respect, I guess it most likely has way less impact on me than it would on someone who was experiencing it for the first time. It's a 'YMMV' kind of thing.