My most important consideration for making this game work.
Verfasst: 19.11.2014 02:35
I am just an end user, and one persons opinion doesn't count for too much, and its best if I accept this from the outset. Its all too easy for people to quickly pass on glib comments on how to make a game better, without consideration about having to work in the suggestions, and we all like our own opinions more than we understand what it would take to make those dreams workable.
That being said I have two considerations I would encourage SureAI to look at if they can.
First, and just to get this out there, for me a bigger game is a better game. I really didn't like the Elder Scrolls postage stamp sized world maps, I much prefer if a world map is larger even if and indeed when it contains the same total content. Games like Skyrim and Oblivion could do to be in at least twice the world map, and I would prefer a world map four times the size (a literal doubling of map width), even if it contained the same number of settlements dungeons quests etc.
I know I am not alone in this but I will be realistic, making worlds bigger during development means changes in pathing and more work, it might not happen, but I will make the request anyway because its on my heart to see bigger games. Frankly a lot of players don't want to see the world jam full of content, especially when you end up with dangerous monsters living a mere hundred metres away from a peaceful village. The two might not interact, but it just doesnt seem right. Even another fifty metres of stretch makes a difference as gives a stronger illusion of space.
Also in fantasy the environment is much of the game, wider forests and lakes longer rivers, all add much to the game even if quests are more spread out and more travel is required. Besides with horses and fast travel (unless SureAI didn't import that feature) even those players who find exploration 'boring' or otherwise don't have time for exploration but want to just get on with the game plot are covered, so making the world bigger only ends up for the best. I do think overall SureAI has little to lose by making the world as big as it feasibly can. It certainly doesn't help that Enderal seems to be set on an even smaller continent than Nehrim from looking at the given material, I hope it is scaled differently.
Ok that done let me get onto my second consideration, and the one I actually came here to talk about: Jump puzzles.
Now a lot of sandbox games have jump puzzles and pits to leap over, its an important part of fantasy. The ones in Oblivion would kill you if you failed the jump, and Nehrim gleefully imported that feature.
However they went overboard with it, especially with the Flower and other quests.
SureAI would be wise to note that Bethesda didn't place jump puzzles in its own main quest in any of its Elder Scroll games since Daggerfall, and the only jumps you had to make were single jumps. I don't think this type of gameplay was overlooked, I think it was intentionally omitted, perhaps fro the reasons discussed here. Nehrim however had jump puzzles more akin to a console game than a traditional RPG title, while it is good that developers expand gaming boundaries some types of content suit a different type of player, and requires a different playstyle and player skillset.
To sum up, If I wanted jump puzzles I would be playing Super Mario or Prince of Persia, not Skyrim, or Enderal.
JUMP PUZZLES RUIN THE GAME.
I say ruin because Enderal is a role playing game, not a console game, and jump puzzles require reflexes not role playing strategy. Gamers have different gaming skills, and requiring a completely different skillset to that required for the game genre, especially if the requirement is revealed late in the content is too restrictive of the player.
SureAI, please make your game inclusive, jump puzzles suit a type of gamer who is quick with the mouse and keyboard, this is not a particular requirement for an RPG. To make matters worse a lot of players choose to play RPG's in hardcore or ironman mode, that is to say, if you die you begin again. Those who play this way are a minority, but its a minority SureAI would be encouraged to support, hardcore players believe as a rule that you can only get the most from a game is there is a real feeling of risk.
Jump puzzles destroy that. To some gamers having a jump puzzle where you have to take several goes and reloads to accomplish is a worthy challenge, and I can respect that, but to a player trying a hardcore play through the inclusion of this type of content is a game breaker. You invest 40+ hours into a character, choosing fights carefully exploiting carefully and savouring the game, only to die because you must climb six moving blocks in quick succession over a lava pit in order to find an item to take to someone to unlock the next part of a quest.
There could well be a satisfaction in playing hardcore and having to get the jump puzzles right first time, or die, but frankly I think that sets the bar a bit high. I even managed it with the jump puzzles met early on in Nehrim. Then I encountered the Flower....
Taking The Flower as an example, it was so hard that even many who liked jump puzzles found it excessive, but it would be forgivable for casual play where reloads are allowed and even for hardcore play if there was an alternate path. The player could have, should have been given a choice. Go through the Flower or pay a forfeit. The forfeit could be anything SureAI can fit in, and it need not be fair. A good example would be a tough boss fight, without an item drop at the end, another would be a tough logic puzzle. Logic puzzles restrict players as much as jump puzzles do, some players cant do them, however those who cannot can always Google the answer somewhere
So, what am I after. Their removal?
No, that would not be fair, and I will have to accept some players might like them, or even think they enrich the game. Though those players are likely to be a lot younger than me and with better reflexes.
I would not place all this here without giving the developers a way out, and a compromise that will make everyone happy.
1. Please do include jump puzzles if you intend Enderal to include the features that Nehrim players have come to expect. I am sure they have their fans.
2. However please make sure that:
a) Any lethal jump or pit is detectable if you play with care, so that hardcore players can play based on their skills not memories of previous run throughs. - So far Sure AI did not have that problem with Nehrim, all pits and jump puzzles were detectable by careful play, it was the players own fault if they stumbled into one.
b) Any jump puzzle consisting of a sequence of jumps that players must resolve be short, no more than three to five jumps between some form of rest opportunity. - This might sound too easy, but many CRPG players are of old age groups and do not have the reflexes for long sequences of jumps.
c) Any jump puzzle not made from single jumps be non lethal. So for example a sequence of jumps where if you fail you fall into water and climb out at the beginning of the jump puzzle. - This allows the challenge of the puzzle to be preserved but makes the puzzle content suitable for hardcore players. The puzzle might hold you back but it wont kill your character you spend dozens of hours carefully playing to get to that point.
3. You can however have exceptions to the above, even jump puzzles as long and as difficult as the Flower in Nehrim, and they could even be in the main quest so long as:
a) There is an alternate route through the same encounter.
b) The jump puzzle exists as part of a subquest for characters specialising in acrobatics.
Acrobat Guilds. An option to help suit all playstyles.
This last point deserves more of an explanation. One way you could make everyone happy is to keep to only simple or non-lethal jump puzzles in the main quest, throughout, with alternate challenges to cover every single exception. Then place all the rest of the jump puzzles in a subline of quests accessible only by joining a Guild of Acrobat-Thieves or similar.
Imagine this, a guild of thieves not concerned with stealth skills, but pure acrobatics, perhaps using a Circus as a front. This will be separate from your normal sneaky type rogues guild. Include a headquarters and a training area filled with jump puzzles, all non lethal. characters that can complete them all get given offers of quests to loot tombs, and lost dungeons that only they dare enter. It might be best if the keys to these locations are given only by this guild. You can fill these locations with as many jump puzzles as you like, as difficult as the Flower, or even harder, with suitable rewards.
You can logically include this type of guild in your game if you already want jump puzzles. Normal thieves based on stealth skills cant loot these tombs, so one enterprising group builds a training area fills it with reconstructions of those traps they could disarm and remove with the promise of training rogues to loot those places no others would dare go. Now all they need is a heroic rogue capable enough to master the traps and brave enough to enter the lost tombs... and along comes the player character.
My experience with Nehrim.
I play my games hardcore, that is to say, if I die I restart. Nehrim was a wonderful game, worthy of this type of playthrough. I died a few times at first, restating from the very beginning each time. When I can I play this way from the very start, playing build and hardcore. I got as far as twenty hours in in one playthrough before finding a spiked pit the hard way. Restarting from that was tough, but fair, it was my fault that I didn't see the pit.
On only three occasions had I leveled a character to the point where he could make a go of the fighting with more confidence. One as mentioned died to the spiked pit in the forests. One died to an ambush . The third made it all the way, getting through all three realms of Nehrim, getting stronger and stronger, and not dying, to anything, due to careful play.
All this ended at the Flower. When I saw the trap I told myself that jump puzzles don't break hardcore. I had to because the trap was so difficult and was obviously lethal from early on. I had to resort to cheating to get through it, autosaving every single successful step, until I got to the top. All that for a character which up to that point had not died, and was played on the understanding that the first death would mean a restart.
I completed the game post Flower without dying, except in the portion of the game where you have to die as part of the mainquest. I completed Nehrim, without being killed by any monster, or falling into any single pit. But since having to cheat the Flower and accomplishment was hollow, I fell off that damn trap so many times all feeling of hardcore play was stripped from me. It didn't help that it was also buggy and each jump had to be timed precisely. The Flower ruined the experience of Nehrim for me, it was a good game, but lacked the magic of an accomplishment of a game that was completable in a hardcore playrthrough.
This is why I am posting this, SureAI please do not ruin Enderal for me and other hardcore gamers. Please make each and every jump puzzle either non lethal or avoidable.
I hope you take my input into consideration. Thank you.
That being said I have two considerations I would encourage SureAI to look at if they can.
First, and just to get this out there, for me a bigger game is a better game. I really didn't like the Elder Scrolls postage stamp sized world maps, I much prefer if a world map is larger even if and indeed when it contains the same total content. Games like Skyrim and Oblivion could do to be in at least twice the world map, and I would prefer a world map four times the size (a literal doubling of map width), even if it contained the same number of settlements dungeons quests etc.
I know I am not alone in this but I will be realistic, making worlds bigger during development means changes in pathing and more work, it might not happen, but I will make the request anyway because its on my heart to see bigger games. Frankly a lot of players don't want to see the world jam full of content, especially when you end up with dangerous monsters living a mere hundred metres away from a peaceful village. The two might not interact, but it just doesnt seem right. Even another fifty metres of stretch makes a difference as gives a stronger illusion of space.
Also in fantasy the environment is much of the game, wider forests and lakes longer rivers, all add much to the game even if quests are more spread out and more travel is required. Besides with horses and fast travel (unless SureAI didn't import that feature) even those players who find exploration 'boring' or otherwise don't have time for exploration but want to just get on with the game plot are covered, so making the world bigger only ends up for the best. I do think overall SureAI has little to lose by making the world as big as it feasibly can. It certainly doesn't help that Enderal seems to be set on an even smaller continent than Nehrim from looking at the given material, I hope it is scaled differently.
Ok that done let me get onto my second consideration, and the one I actually came here to talk about: Jump puzzles.
Now a lot of sandbox games have jump puzzles and pits to leap over, its an important part of fantasy. The ones in Oblivion would kill you if you failed the jump, and Nehrim gleefully imported that feature.
However they went overboard with it, especially with the Flower and other quests.
SureAI would be wise to note that Bethesda didn't place jump puzzles in its own main quest in any of its Elder Scroll games since Daggerfall, and the only jumps you had to make were single jumps. I don't think this type of gameplay was overlooked, I think it was intentionally omitted, perhaps fro the reasons discussed here. Nehrim however had jump puzzles more akin to a console game than a traditional RPG title, while it is good that developers expand gaming boundaries some types of content suit a different type of player, and requires a different playstyle and player skillset.
To sum up, If I wanted jump puzzles I would be playing Super Mario or Prince of Persia, not Skyrim, or Enderal.
JUMP PUZZLES RUIN THE GAME.
I say ruin because Enderal is a role playing game, not a console game, and jump puzzles require reflexes not role playing strategy. Gamers have different gaming skills, and requiring a completely different skillset to that required for the game genre, especially if the requirement is revealed late in the content is too restrictive of the player.
SureAI, please make your game inclusive, jump puzzles suit a type of gamer who is quick with the mouse and keyboard, this is not a particular requirement for an RPG. To make matters worse a lot of players choose to play RPG's in hardcore or ironman mode, that is to say, if you die you begin again. Those who play this way are a minority, but its a minority SureAI would be encouraged to support, hardcore players believe as a rule that you can only get the most from a game is there is a real feeling of risk.
Jump puzzles destroy that. To some gamers having a jump puzzle where you have to take several goes and reloads to accomplish is a worthy challenge, and I can respect that, but to a player trying a hardcore play through the inclusion of this type of content is a game breaker. You invest 40+ hours into a character, choosing fights carefully exploiting carefully and savouring the game, only to die because you must climb six moving blocks in quick succession over a lava pit in order to find an item to take to someone to unlock the next part of a quest.
There could well be a satisfaction in playing hardcore and having to get the jump puzzles right first time, or die, but frankly I think that sets the bar a bit high. I even managed it with the jump puzzles met early on in Nehrim. Then I encountered the Flower....
Taking The Flower as an example, it was so hard that even many who liked jump puzzles found it excessive, but it would be forgivable for casual play where reloads are allowed and even for hardcore play if there was an alternate path. The player could have, should have been given a choice. Go through the Flower or pay a forfeit. The forfeit could be anything SureAI can fit in, and it need not be fair. A good example would be a tough boss fight, without an item drop at the end, another would be a tough logic puzzle. Logic puzzles restrict players as much as jump puzzles do, some players cant do them, however those who cannot can always Google the answer somewhere
So, what am I after. Their removal?
No, that would not be fair, and I will have to accept some players might like them, or even think they enrich the game. Though those players are likely to be a lot younger than me and with better reflexes.
I would not place all this here without giving the developers a way out, and a compromise that will make everyone happy.
1. Please do include jump puzzles if you intend Enderal to include the features that Nehrim players have come to expect. I am sure they have their fans.
2. However please make sure that:
a) Any lethal jump or pit is detectable if you play with care, so that hardcore players can play based on their skills not memories of previous run throughs. - So far Sure AI did not have that problem with Nehrim, all pits and jump puzzles were detectable by careful play, it was the players own fault if they stumbled into one.
b) Any jump puzzle consisting of a sequence of jumps that players must resolve be short, no more than three to five jumps between some form of rest opportunity. - This might sound too easy, but many CRPG players are of old age groups and do not have the reflexes for long sequences of jumps.
c) Any jump puzzle not made from single jumps be non lethal. So for example a sequence of jumps where if you fail you fall into water and climb out at the beginning of the jump puzzle. - This allows the challenge of the puzzle to be preserved but makes the puzzle content suitable for hardcore players. The puzzle might hold you back but it wont kill your character you spend dozens of hours carefully playing to get to that point.
3. You can however have exceptions to the above, even jump puzzles as long and as difficult as the Flower in Nehrim, and they could even be in the main quest so long as:
a) There is an alternate route through the same encounter.
b) The jump puzzle exists as part of a subquest for characters specialising in acrobatics.
Acrobat Guilds. An option to help suit all playstyles.
This last point deserves more of an explanation. One way you could make everyone happy is to keep to only simple or non-lethal jump puzzles in the main quest, throughout, with alternate challenges to cover every single exception. Then place all the rest of the jump puzzles in a subline of quests accessible only by joining a Guild of Acrobat-Thieves or similar.
Imagine this, a guild of thieves not concerned with stealth skills, but pure acrobatics, perhaps using a Circus as a front. This will be separate from your normal sneaky type rogues guild. Include a headquarters and a training area filled with jump puzzles, all non lethal. characters that can complete them all get given offers of quests to loot tombs, and lost dungeons that only they dare enter. It might be best if the keys to these locations are given only by this guild. You can fill these locations with as many jump puzzles as you like, as difficult as the Flower, or even harder, with suitable rewards.
You can logically include this type of guild in your game if you already want jump puzzles. Normal thieves based on stealth skills cant loot these tombs, so one enterprising group builds a training area fills it with reconstructions of those traps they could disarm and remove with the promise of training rogues to loot those places no others would dare go. Now all they need is a heroic rogue capable enough to master the traps and brave enough to enter the lost tombs... and along comes the player character.
My experience with Nehrim.
I play my games hardcore, that is to say, if I die I restart. Nehrim was a wonderful game, worthy of this type of playthrough. I died a few times at first, restating from the very beginning each time. When I can I play this way from the very start, playing build and hardcore. I got as far as twenty hours in in one playthrough before finding a spiked pit the hard way. Restarting from that was tough, but fair, it was my fault that I didn't see the pit.
On only three occasions had I leveled a character to the point where he could make a go of the fighting with more confidence. One as mentioned died to the spiked pit in the forests. One died to an ambush . The third made it all the way, getting through all three realms of Nehrim, getting stronger and stronger, and not dying, to anything, due to careful play.
All this ended at the Flower. When I saw the trap I told myself that jump puzzles don't break hardcore. I had to because the trap was so difficult and was obviously lethal from early on. I had to resort to cheating to get through it, autosaving every single successful step, until I got to the top. All that for a character which up to that point had not died, and was played on the understanding that the first death would mean a restart.
I completed the game post Flower without dying, except in the portion of the game where you have to die as part of the mainquest. I completed Nehrim, without being killed by any monster, or falling into any single pit. But since having to cheat the Flower and accomplishment was hollow, I fell off that damn trap so many times all feeling of hardcore play was stripped from me. It didn't help that it was also buggy and each jump had to be timed precisely. The Flower ruined the experience of Nehrim for me, it was a good game, but lacked the magic of an accomplishment of a game that was completable in a hardcore playrthrough.
This is why I am posting this, SureAI please do not ruin Enderal for me and other hardcore gamers. Please make each and every jump puzzle either non lethal or avoidable.
I hope you take my input into consideration. Thank you.