Terrible combat

[microscope]

Surely I am not the only one....? Maybe I have been spoiled after playing EverQuest for so many years. But these Elder Scrolls games, they are always such a let down for me. They have such nice graphics, and I like the first person view, I like exploring an open world, I like getting involved in various quests etc. and Skyrim even has less repetitive dungeons! It is almost perfect...

But the combat, I just hate it. I much prefer slower more tactical combat. EQ was my favourite for that, a single dangerous mob could take about a minute to kill, and everything you did was very important. One wrong click could mean you died. Mana efficiency was also very important, and regen after a fight was slow, so it made things dangerous and everything mattered. You don't just unload your biggest spells on every enemy, because you need to save your mana for when something bad happens. So you kill each mob as efficiently as possible, and then when you sit down to rest after a big fight, if some other huge enemy attacks you... at least you have enough mana left to kill it or at least snare it so you can run away.

But even if the game has to be an "action" style of RPG combat, even that could be far better. Like in Guild Wars 2 and other modern MMO's, you can dive in any angle, so when a mob lifts his huge 2 handed mallet and is about to smack you, you can quickly dive out the way. And for a start, the game pausing when I choose different spells in Skyrim was just pathetic. It ruins any sense of flow and action. But it's also far too simple. Just squirting fire all over the place is not fun. I installed some mods that made things far better by adding lots of spells and making things harder. I especially liked the runes you put on the ground and if you can lead the enemies in to them, they explode. And much more interesting pets, ranger, tank, spell caster, and even a group of spiders which spreads and becomes 3, then 6, then 9, then 12 and can easily end up filling a whole room with your little minions.

But even with that mod installed, it's still not really 'good'. There is no control over the enemies, I can't "root" them or snare them or do anything to make it less manic. It's always just running around shooting fireballs or whatever, there is not much room for brain power.

If I could play an Elder Scrolls game, but with a more traditional class based system, I would be so happy. If I play as a pet class, I want to be able to control the pet, at least with basic "back off" and "attack this" commands. Ideally like the EQ Necromancer, where you transfer your own health to the pet to heal it, and then you have to drain the health of the enemy to fill you back up. It is a delicate process and you have to be very careful. And if you get too low, all nearby enemies stop everything and try to finish you off.

Or if I am a Sorcerer/Wizard/Druid type, I want to be root the mobs in place so they aren't constantly chasing me. Then use Damage over Time spells which are mana efficient and less likely to break the root. But also have direct damage spells as well for when you need them. Maybe have a snare + Fear combination to let you 'fear kite' things when possible.

Or as an Enchanter type, I was extremely squishy, I could die in a few seconds, but I had an PBAoE (point blank area of effect) stun spell which stuns everything nearby for about 3 seconds. It is just long enough for me to root an enemy or whatever. And then I charm an enemy to become my pet, and he stays my pet for several minutes. At that point I need to debuff enemies so they dont kill my pet. And then when the charm breaks, I need to kill my own pet or charm it again.

Basically, I already know this team will make a great game. Nehrim was really fun and far better than Oblivion imo. The world was prettier, the quests were more interesting, etc.. I am sure they can do the same again with Skyrim. But I already liked those things anyway in Skyrim. The one big glaring weak point for me, is the combat. If you can make that significantly better, then I will be totally in love with the game I'm sure.

[Daniel]

The problem is Bethesda didn't put a lot of thought into developing combat mechanics, despite calling them "new and greater than ever before" - it's pretty much hack and slash, and difficulty of monster depends on how much damage it does and whether you can heal through its damage or succumb to it before you kill it.

Skyrim was not designed to be unforgiving nor to be catering to hardcore gamers who want it to be hard, since all that happens when you change difficulty is that the monsters gain more armor/hp and hit harder. No new skills/abilities or tactics are added, just some simple changed values to cater to mainstream gamers. Did you know that over 80% of Skyrim's playerbase played the game on consoles initially?

Skyrim was and still is Bethesda Game Studios' most popular game so far, with well over 15 million sold units so far. I really, really hope the budget for the next game will be a LOT bigger (Skyrim's was a mere 85 million) and the first 4 million sales alone were worth a whopping 450 million dollars.

All we can do is hope they've hired more a lot more experienced staff and are looking at the feedback that TES players and Fallout 3 players have given them during the years to give us a better experience than "Go to X place, kill X, bring X to me" which seems to be the epitome of game quests these days. I really wish they will release a game that is going to show real innovation and revive the RPG-genre and show us, the audience, that AAA-games are not only cash cows for big corporations but "a real labor of love" as Bethesda called Skyrim.

I doubt they felt that Skyrim was so great during development though since the dev tools are pretty crappy.

[Nicolas Samuel]

There will be an update on that very shortly, what a coincidence. I understand what you think and I also felt that Skyrim didn't leave to much room for tactics - We're aiming to change that.

[Hazzmat]

Alright Latiro , looking forward to that!

[Al Ciao]

In some ways, I have to disagree with the OP. Most especially when he says he wants a more "class-based system". Bah. The big draw of the Elder Scrolls games is their openness and freedom - open world, customizable class build, modding. I also take great exception to how he describes "tactical combat": he merely draws on MMO combat for what he wants. I personally detest MMOs. I have played a couple, and other than my generally despising multiplayer games in general, the combat feels stilted yet breakneck at the same time. One might say there are "tactics" involved in MMO combat, but once you realize which tactic is best, there is very little variation in what you do. (i.e. First use Power 1, use Powers 2 and 3 whilst waiting for Power 1 to recharge, then use Power 1 again, now Power 3 is recharged so I'll use that, rinse and repeat).

Skyrim being relatively easy is great for me in a lot of ways. First, I am a casual gamer who does not like excessive difficulty; I play to have fun, not to be frustrated. Secondly, I can choose the way I want to kill enemies; as the game is not so punishing as to lock you into a certain way you have to kill it in order to succeed. It allows me to mix it up between sword and board, shield or spell, or however else I want it, as I please.

TL;DR: no class-based system; and don't draw inspiration for "tactical combat" from MMOs, please.

[microscope]

The problem is Bethesda didn't put a lot of thought into developing combat mechanics, despite calling them "new and greater than ever before" - it's pretty much hack and slash, and difficulty of monster depends on how much damage it does and whether you can heal through its damage or succumb to it before you kill it.

Skyrim was not designed to be unforgiving nor to be catering to hardcore gamers who want it to be hard, since all that happens when you change difficulty is that the monsters gain more armor/hp and hit harder. No new skills/abilities or tactics are added, just some simple changed values to cater to mainstream gamers. Did you know that over 80% of Skyrim's playerbase played the game on consoles initially?

Skyrim was and still is Bethesda Game Studios' most popular game so far, with well over 15 million sold units so far. I really, really hope the budget for the next game will be a LOT bigger (Skyrim's was a mere 85 million) and the first 4 million sales alone were worth a whopping 450 million dollars.

All we can do is hope they've hired more a lot more experienced staff and are looking at the feedback that TES players and Fallout 3 players have given them during the years to give us a better experience than "Go to X place, kill X, bring X to me" which seems to be the epitome of game quests these days. I really wish they will release a game that is going to show real innovation and revive the RPG-genre and show us, the audience, that AAA-games are not only cash cows for big corporations but "a real labor of love" as Bethesda called Skyrim.

I doubt they felt that Skyrim was so great during development though since the dev tools are pretty crappy.

I agree 100%! They need to put more love in to the game...

But in the meantime at least I have stuff like Enderal. I am so excited about this because I think Bethesda have such a good engine, but like I said, I don't really care about anything else in Elder Scrolls. The lore, the way the skills/spells/classes work, the way the combat works, the setting, the UI... basically everything I don't really like. So I would love to see someone else make it

I can't wait. I hope the team all get enough money to keep things going. It is a good time now for games devs, with Steam and kickstarter and stuff.

[Daniel]

wall of text

I agree 100%! They need to put more love in to the game...

But in the meantime at least I have stuff like Enderal. I am so excited about this because I think Bethesda have such a good engine, but like I said, I don't really care about anything else in Elder Scrolls. The lore, the way the skills/spells/classes work, the way the combat works, the setting, the UI... basically everything I don't really like. So I would love to see someone else make it

I can't wait. I hope the team all get enough money to keep things going. It is a good time now for games devs, with Steam and kickstarter and stuff.

Yes, mods are great, and we are lucky that Bethesda has fans like SureAI that are willing to pour hours and hours (so far over 13 thousand...) into developing something more worth playing than their initial game. Skyrim is a pretty bland game without mods in my opinion.

I hope you've played Nehrim - if you haven't, you should! It's set in the same universe as Enderal and you'll probably be more understanding of things if you've played Nehrim before starting Enderal.

[badgesareus]

I hope you've played Nehrim - if you haven't, you should! It's set in the same universe as Enderal and you'll probably be more understanding of things if you've played Nehrim before starting Enderal.

I absolutely agree, and furthermore, if you enjoy Nehrim I would recommend playing Arktwend, its predecessor also in the same universe. It is quite interesting once you get into it, but it is also challenging as there is no English Wiki and sometimes it takes a bit of effort to discover just what you should be doing (reading your journal frequently helps).