What would you consider important for Enderal?

[mandos]

Hey,
I know that i am probably late for the party, discovered Nehrim just a week ago, but i can't resist to not contribute to this topic, hoping that something might stuck or that at least i will share some ideas my modding experience is minimal so if i suggest something totally off please dont bash me

1. Bring back the condition to the weapons and armor. I missed it in Skyrim, and i think that it opens some interesting opportunities with blacksmithing. For example, if you would have 2 levels of condition, one for overall condition of the material (life expectancy), and second for actual damage condition which would improve weapon damage for certain amount of charges, but it would lower the overall condition of the weapon. This way you could sharpen your blade for excess damage output, but it would cause in long run deterioration and the need to reforge or replace the weapon altogether due to usage. This would in turn allow the ability to craft low tier weapons and armor from high end materials, i.e. an “iron dagger” crafted out of ebony ore would be much more resilient, yet nowhere near damage output of an actual ebony dagger. As well you could have recipes hidden throughout the world for crafting specialty items, or combinations of material with certain recipe.Overall i think the blacksmithing in Skyrim is critically underdeveloped.

2. Alchemy revamped. It would be much more engaging if you could put something like alchemy system Witcher 1, i.e. make potions to be more powerfull, with less immediate effect(healing over time etc.). This way you could prevent abuse of potions in battles (maybe with something like toxicity as well), and also some more planning in fight would be required (to drink potions before the battle etc), not just charge > buttonmash. And this would tie nicely with my next suggestion, which would be to get rid of inventory pause.
Really, if you can just go into inventory anytime, while time magically stops around you, eat and drink to full health and continue the fight, than the amount of situations which can directly threaten you is drastically reduced. The only skill required in Skyrim to avoid death is an itchy inventory finger.

3.Drowning and Poisoning: i am not sure whether this was implemented in Skyrim, but i think that drowning shouldnt affect the same mechanics as health counter,i.e. when your breath reaches 0% you should die ,regardless of how much health you have. The same goes for poisoning, i think that it would be much more interesting if you could use some sort of a first aid, cure poison or cure disease, without the poison affecting directly your health. Untreated poisoning would sooner or later lead to death, regardless of the amount of health that you have left. Also the effect of disease could be more dramatic. And the deadly fall height should not be calculated by the amount of health that you have as well (one of the few things that i liked about Skyrim). Being beefed up doesnt really help in denying gravity:) In Nehrim I couldn't find a fall which would take more than 50% of my health.

4. Horses: I think horses in Skyrim were a little more than a nuissance. But i think that you cant really expand on horses without expanding stamina concept (extremely shallow in skyrim). Horses doesnt need to be very fast, but they need to be usefull. In my opinion enjoyable use of horse requires: a) Running actually draining stamina b) Fatigue regeneration scaled (not like in Skyrim that speed of recovery is same under pretty much all circumstances running/walking/riding/sitting/fightning etc...) c) Horse bag (no overkill, just realistic) d) Horse follow, so that you can pick some herbs and your horse would be following. This leads me to another issue which is inventory management. I have no idea whether you can do this, but it would be totally mindblowing if the inventory could be separated into 3-5 classes, lets say a weapon category, ingredients and potions, misc. Whenever you would pick up an item it would be automatically assigned into the appropriate section.If it’s a sword, it goes into weapon and armor category which has capacity of 150 (sword is 10 for example). If its an ingredient it would go into its respective category, which would have 100/100. This way you could have together still quite decent carry weight, without the ridiculous “drop one sword pick up 100 flowers” bit. I also think that Skyrim' "device" of walking with carry weight of 1000/300 does not help the immersion either.

5. Deadly enviroment: This is maybe issue of Skyrim more than anything, but i think that if you would have an incentive to avoid water for some unpleasent effects (getting cold, freezing, getting your equipment wet, etc.) than you could build up some pretty neat tension when looking for bridges, rocks, or other means of traversing the water. Swimming should be end result, not a no brain shortcutting.

6. Map and Map markers Some people have already mentioned this, i just want to endorse that Google Skyrim is BS and completely useless I would be much happier with simple paper map, in my opinion much more immersive too. If it would be possible, the need to buy it without all the major cities highlighted would be a great addition. As far as map markers goes, this was nearly game breaking in Nehrim for me. In Oblivion i didnt mind it as much, because the dungeons were numerous with almost no reward for completing, but in Nehrim you know that in those 10 dungeons out of 15 in the area has to be the set armor, so systematically clearing dungeons while you are scanning for their location from the road is killing the exploration aspect...in a game which one of the main focuses is on exploration.

7. Skill system: damage of weapons not affected by skill value, so that getting to the very high skill very quickly wouldn't be difficulty breaking, but would rather serve as an improvement in technical and strategical side of combat. In Nehrim nohthing can withstand more than 3 hits of my armageddon, which can be obtained pretty early

So, to wrap up, in the end just let me encourage you on making a lot of moving platforms (lifts, trains, etc), something which really lacked in all elder scrolls, great job here, keep it up.
And after all, i know this comes up a lot, but a bit more side quests wouldn't hurt. I know its asking a lot, but if you could have like 1 or 2 quests per settlement, than it would help with merging with the world and its characters, rather than just looking for the first trader before moving on. But please, don't put radiant system in No quests are better than radiant quests
In the end let me say that you did helluva job with Nehrim, i am yet to finish it, still have to check arktvend (i cant compare now), but most of your game is better than Oblivion itself, and the rest of it is on par

P.S: I am sorry for the lenght of this.. kinda got carried away

[Lmaoboat]

Lots and lots and lots of interesting, hand placed loot. I always loved all the unique items in the Baldur's Gate game that had their own unqiue abilities and lore. One of my least favorite things about TES games is that, with a few exceptions, loot has always been pretty bland and formulaic. I think Nehrim did this better than Oblivion, but I hope Enderal does it even better.

[Xagul]

Lots and lots and lots of interesting, hand placed loot. I always loved all the unique items in the Baldur's Gate game that had their own unqiue abilities and lore. One of my least favorite things about TES games is that, with a few exceptions, loot has always been pretty bland and formulaic. I think Nehrim did this better than Oblivion, but I hope Enderal does it even better.

Gaming isn't about loot.

@mandos: Thank you so much for your thoughts! Most of them absolutely make sense. On the other hand you raise an important point: Some things need to be realistic and as far as I've experienced the development, young gamers don't want immersion and realistic gaming but convenience, loot and success.
I also hope, they'll skip that silly success messages. Nobody need them

[Lmaoboat]

Lots and lots and lots of interesting, hand placed loot. I always loved all the unique items in the Baldur's Gate game that had their own unqiue abilities and lore. One of my least favorite things about TES games is that, with a few exceptions, loot has always been pretty bland and formulaic. I think Nehrim did this better than Oblivion, but I hope Enderal does it even better.

Gaming isn't about loot.

Gaming might not be "about" loot, but it's a very important part of very many RPGs. It's what rewards exploring and gives the constant expectation that you might find something new and awesome. An open world is nothing without things to find in it.

[Xagul]

Gaming might not be "about" loot, but it's a very important part of very many RPGs. It's what rewards exploring and gives the constant expectation that you might find something new and awesome.

We made it this way. It's not that anybody designed it this way, only a clever adaptation to man's cerebellum, that needs to collect useful items. It think, it's the task of innovatice game design to get over this neaderthal approach to other, innovative approaches that draw more attention and generate more long-time playing value.

[Lmaoboat]

Gaming might not be "about" loot, but it's a very important part of very many RPGs. It's what rewards exploring and gives the constant expectation that you might find something new and awesome.

We made it this way. It's not that anybody designed it this way, only a clever adaptation to man's cerebellum, that needs to collect useful items. It think, it's the task of innovatice game design to get over this neaderthal approach to other, innovative approaches that draw more attention and generate more long-time playing value.

Right, and what sort of game mechanics that don't appeal to us knuckle-dragging Cro-Magnons do you have in mind? Because here I was thinking games were supposed to be entertaining, but I now know I am but an ignorant troglodyte who can do nothing but tarnish the transcendental art form that is gaming with my vulgar concept of "fun."

[Xagul]

Right, and what sort of game mechanics that don't appeal to us knuckle-dragging Cro-Magnons do you have in mind?
Because here I was thinking games were supposed to be entertaining, but I now know I am but an ignorant troglodyte who can do nothing but tarnish the transcendental art form that is gaming with my vulgar concept of "fun."

Take it easy. I usually try to polarize to get new inputs. I think there are ways to get away from the "knuckle-dragging Cro-Magnons" behaviour in a way that you draw attention away from these mechanics. And instead let's try something new. I have to admit, I do not have an ultimate answer but I could imagine that loot could be substituted by a mixture of crafting, building up and exploring existing social networks and using them (a bit like guilds but hopefully more sophisticated than the Oblivion-style) doing science and gaining arcane knowledge (not just "magic"but also other profound knowledge about the world/society/etc that only can be obtained by committing yourself to a special order and way of life).
I wish to get away from "I need a good item --> usually found in Area XY with parameters IJ, covariance o --> Let's try! [Iteration 1 to inf]"
or "There is a special item --> I want it! [Google] --> Execute [Google(results)] --> Hurray!" (Not to speak of "Player-AddItem xyz")
Instead, I'd like to create a more individual but nevertheless exciting, funny, enjoyable gaming experience.
I know that's not easy and maybe I'm demanding too much (or I'm just a weirdo) but nevertheless I think innovative adjustments to games are a good thing

[Lmaoboat]

Right, and what sort of game mechanics that don't appeal to us knuckle-dragging Cro-Magnons do you have in mind?
Because here I was thinking games were supposed to be entertaining, but I now know I am but an ignorant troglodyte who can do nothing but tarnish the transcendental art form that is gaming with my vulgar concept of "fun."

Take it easy. I usually try to polarize to get new inputs. I think there are ways to get away from the "knuckle-dragging Cro-Magnons" behaviour in a way that you draw attention away from these mechanics. And instead let's try something new. I have to admit, I do not have an ultimate answer but I could imagine that loot could be substituted by a mixture of crafting, building up and exploring existing social networks and using them (a bit like guilds but hopefully more sophisticated than the Oblivion-style) doing science and gaining arcane knowledge (not just "magic"but also other profound knowledge about the world/society/etc that only can be obtained by committing yourself to a special order and way of life).
I wish to get away from "I need a good item --> usually found in Area XY with parameters IJ, covariance o --> Let's try! [Iteration 1 to inf]"
or "There is a special item --> I want it! [Google] --> Execute [Google(results)] --> Hurray!" (Not to speak of "Player-AddItem xyz")
Instead, I'd like to create a more individual but nevertheless exciting, funny, enjoyable gaming experience.
I know that's not easy and maybe I'm demanding too much (or I'm just a weirdo) but nevertheless I think innovative adjustments to games are a good thing

Sorry, I was a bit snippy there. I've just found loot, particularly hand crafted and hand placed loot to be the best way to reward exploration, especially for looking in dangerous or hard to find places. If there were no weapons or armor, there'd be nothing in dungeons but XP, which I think would make for an extremely boring game. Having items mainly just improve your stats isn't that great either. Skyrim did a lot better than Oblivion in terms of not having items and spells be mostly just bland stat increases, but I really want to see SureAI go to town and make sure every corner of the game has something unique to find.

[mandos]

loot could be substituted by a mixture of crafting, building up and exploring existing social networks and using them (a bit like guilds but hopefully more sophisticated than the Oblivion-style) doing science and gaining arcane knowledge (not just "magic"but also other profound knowledge about the world/society/etc that only can be obtained by committing yourself to a special order and way of life).

i think you just described my perfect rpg

Nowadays it seems that there is too much emphasis on "endgame content" and lack of clear philosophy on how to approach it (definitely on Bethesda' side). What i didnt like about Skyrim is that they have tried to sell it as best rpg ever, when more than anything it is linear-openworld action game. My biggest complaint is that the you spend 80% of the game by amassing better equipment and skills, and when you finally come to it it often is...underwhelming. For my rpg of dreams you are rewarded for little things that you do regardless of how much time you invest in, or how deep in main quest you are. Also the reward of blacksmithing/enchanting/alchemy shouldnt be exclusively the ability to smash your oponents faster, withstand more punishment, or bleed your opponent better.

Skyrim emphasis is on leveling, which is accentuated by speed by which it can be achieved. And further, you are rewarded by leveling even faster (experience stones, sleeping). Skyrim focus is pretty narrow (leveling+better equipment), and after you achieve this "goal", you are rewarded with...few quests that are left or miriad underwhelming radiant quests.

[Bastion of Reason]

loot could be substituted by a mixture of crafting, building up and exploring existing social networks and using them (a bit like guilds but hopefully more sophisticated than the Oblivion-style) doing science and gaining arcane knowledge (not just "magic"but also other profound knowledge about the world/society/etc that only can be obtained by committing yourself to a special order and way of life).

Some parts of this suggestion sound amazing, the ability to build a social networks and use it to do experiments, research different kinds of magic (which would of course be researched in different ways), consult experts and gain arcane knowledge that way, gain quests and hear lore about the world. It would be too hardcore if it was the only way to obtain things but this should be a possibility to do. You could build an entourage / association / network of contacts (Please don't make it a company as that has cold and sterile feel that is opposed to the companionate social network / network of contacts that the quoted text above made me think of).

One thing I don't like in that suggestion is that while joining guilds is fun in that it places you into a new social milieu the feel is always of the underling. It feels like you're giving up part of your identity to some guild just because that's the guild that's in the game and you want to go through the game and explore its content. And then there's the contradiction in joining every possible group. All Oblivion/Skyrim characters are eventually grandmasters of every guild. How much sense does that make, especially when some of the guilds are rivals to other guilds like the Dark Brotherhood? Does it make sense that the archmage of the mages guild is taken in as a raw recruit, a footpad, into the thieves guild? Does it make sense he'd officially join? The argument people give for allowing that is that you shouldn't close off other guilds' storylines from the player so that the player doesn't have to take a new character to play through each of the storylines.

But wouldn't it make much more sense to avoid all of these problems in the first place and make it clear to the player that he's doing his own thing and building his own association. Maybe the fact that the Player Character is building a network of contacts could be based on the plot, maybe for example the PC belongs to a ruined association with a claim to prestige and is really rebuilding a legitimate past organization instead of pursuing his own ambitions, like it was in Nehrim/Dragon Age/many other games, that way it would be about something other than self-aggrandizement. Or the PC could build his network from scratch because the player character is betrayed in the beginning of the game and a companion of his dies and beseeches the player character with his dying words to never forget that you need friends and contacts. That would also be an uplifting message to those people who maybe play too much video-games and make them remember that people are important too, maybe you'll make a gaming addict put down games for one evening and go out to talk to live people. There could of course be some kind of organization to keep the main quest structured, but building your organization would organize most of the myriad side-quests.

You could make simply buying items either expensive or rigid (as in lower variety and inflexible supply) so that the network is a better source of items or you could just bait the character with quests that set him in the path of increasing his network of contacts. Games like Endreal by design contain different cultures and locales, so imagine what would happen if the game was about bringing the best of different influences together to create a winning combination in the face of the momentous task the game will no doubt include in its main plot? That could affect many areas, item design (unlock exotic items created by the network), information (consult people from your network of contacts who will have different information, views, opinions, advice into issues, quests and people. Maybe even have them be accessible for consultation from the same place [via crystal ball or something? Letter?] so that you'll hear a localized and immediate debate when you ask your network's advice), quests, and you'd have to take into account their motivations (some people from your network might be shrewd and selfish, others altruistic, others rash and physical, some semidetached and scholarly and others downright treacherous). Imagine you could grant different levels of access to different people, in effect that you could in effect decide who you can trust with what and how much. That would be astounding, something unprecedented in a PC RPG-game.

Essentially you would bring together people and who you bring together would affect your ability to create physical items, your knowledge both arcane and mundane, information about the world around you and unlock quests. Think of the possibilities! Different places of the world could have different kind of resources&people, and opening trade routes between them and introducing people from different places would make you unlock items, research and quests. When you travel somewhere, not only would you be thinking of the quest you'll do in place X but you'd have an incentive to look closer, pay attention and try to interact with people more.

So why would the player be interested in networking as opposed to how things were in previous games? Because people like acquiring things, essentially up to now games have merely allowed the character to acquire items and skills, no game that I know of has ever allowed a character to acquire a social network. Yet although the term social network is new, social networks are part of the human condition and are as old as humanity. People want to acquire social networks as much as they want to acquire physical stuff. -->
           : Ask yourself, how many millions of people do you think spend more than an hour daily on facebook?
--> Make the game represent your in-game social network as one of the tabs next to your inventory. Essentially your social network could be a major force for the character to keep track of, almost as important as what items the character is wearing or what skills/spells he knows.


It doesn't matter what kind of advantage you give the player who collects a good network of contacts. But the point would be not only to to unlock new items, but it could be a major way of getting side-quests. An infinite amount of possible side-quests logically follow from the idea of building a network of contacts and strengthening them. So how is that different from what other games already do? Well, make it explicit, make it interactive, make the contacts interact with each other and make the player in charge of keeping the network in good health (solving problems, conflicts between contacts, doing favours) in exchange for running it and capitalizing on it. Make things happen in the network and make the network be in flux. Then when the main plot progresses it should affect your network: Being branded a criminal would cut you off from parts of your network, having your reputation restored would bring your network back, parts of your social network could even be destroyed by the whims of the main plot. Then later on in the game you'd have to make tough decisions about how to prioritize profitable parts of your network vs. how much your prioritize your romantic interest(s?) vs. how much you prioritize your friends. That's a great place for the much-wanted player decisions.

Of course the player will still be on center stage, but it makes perfect sense for the player to collect a network of contacts to support him in making great things happen. Make social networks directly affect the kind of items you use, the clothing you wear, the kind of spells you cast. Then on top of that you can still have parts of the items being bought from stores and found in dungeons so that the player never feels like he's restricted from using something essential because of the network of contacts he has. Social networks will bring meaning into what would otherwise be random side-quests and you'll feel like you're part of a bigger whole without the restrictive&assimilating atmosphere of guilds. And imagine the motivation you'll get to do side-quests if your character is the reason the quests exist in the first place -->
         : Why would a character break into a nest of necromancers and vanquish them? Because they have loot? Or because they're the unintended result of his own experiments and research into necromancy, and the quest opened up since he had commissioned people to help with his research into necromancy and one of their apprentices leaked part of the research intentionally, unintentionally or justifiably? I don't suppose I have to ask you which is the more meaningful and more fun-to-play scenario

It's a jungle out there in the world of Endreal, you don't want to be alone. Do it SureAI, here's a great organizing principle for many of the mechanics of the entire game. Want to create buzz and spark interest for your game? Then make social networks an explicit part of the game and do something revolutionary and new.

Thank you for reading such a monster post. Even if only parts of this get implemented it would surely make for something unique and special.

I have confidence in you guys,
Peace,
Hannu